Why the ECHL over AHL?

[Nightsquad]

With all the chatter these days over former AHL towns now in the ECHL, ya know all the pros and cons I figured I share the link of a great article recently from Toledo. Its just a good piece to read regarding the author's opinion why the ECHL works so well for Toledo. Same argument is often made in Fort Wayne. Its my opinion that sadly the ECHL sacrificed so much for the benefit of it's NHL relationship.

The crap attitude of "fans" in Manchester IMO don't do the ECHL any favors. Should Manchester manages to retain their team maybe they can learn to appreciate what they have. If places like Toledo, Ft. Wayne, Orlando, Jacksonville, and Tulsa can call the ECHL home then there is no reason for Manchester not to. Maybe fresh ownership and a rebrand much like that in Springfield can fuel Manchester's rebirth.

Why the Walleye are actually better off in the ECHL than AHL

Click to read more...

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

With all the chatter these days over former AHL towns now in the ECHL, ya know all the pros and cons I figured I share the link of a great article recently from Toledo. Its just a good piece to read regarding the author's opinion why the ECHL works so well for Toledo. Same argument is often made in Fort Wayne. Its my opinion that sadly the ECHL sacrificed so much for the benefit of it's NHL relationship.

The crap attitude of "fans" in Manchester IMO don't do the ECHL any favors. Should Manchester manages to retain their team maybe they can learn to appreciate what they have. If places like Toledo, Ft. Wayne, Orlando, Jacksonville, and Tulsa can call the ECHL home then there is no reason for Manchester not to. Maybe fresh ownership and a rebrand much like that in Springfield can fuel Manchester's rebirth.

Why the Walleye are actually better off in the ECHL than AHL

thanks

 

[BruinsFan37]

The quality of the product on the ice was never the problem in Manchester, it was how the front office treated the fans.

If you have a base-model Chevy, sell a base-model Chevy. Market it as the best possible base-model Chevy out there. Don't tell me it's a Lexus (because you were selling Lexus last year) and try to sell me the base-model Chevy at the price of a Lexus. And definitely don't raise the price of base-model Chevy to above what you were charging for a Lexus last year.

Also if it's starting to go bad because you insisted on doing all that anyway, don't start ripping out the passenger seat and other amenities to save costs, and still keep telling me it's a Lexus.

 

[Nightsquad]

The quality of the product on the ice was never the problem in Manchester, it was how the front office treated the fans.

If you have a base-model Chevy, sell a base-model Chevy. Market it as the best possible base-model Chevy out there. Don't tell me it's a Lexus (because you were selling Lexus last year) and try to sell me the base-model Chevy at the price of a Lexus. And definitely don't raise the price of base-model Chevy to above what you were charging for a Lexus last year.

Also if it's starting to go bad because you insisted on doing all that anyway, don't start ripping out the passenger seat and other amenities to save costs, and still keep telling me it's a Lexus.

While I appreciate your analogy much of the frustration should have been directed towards the original ownership. They shifted their AHL operations and brought in the ECHL with ZERO respect for the good fanbase who supported their organization. That's why many here say contracts ultimately are not ironclad, and never rest comfortably that your franchise sits securely.

Most well versed hockey fan knows the difference in overall team play (individual talent is plentiful) between the AHL and ECHL. Any attempts to sell the product as a Lexus is absurd, the AHL isn't even a Lexus, that would be the NHL lol. As far as a casual fan or those looking for a night out the switch to ECHL hockey would mostly go unnoticed.

In Adirondack GM Brian Petrovek pulled a similar stunt on the sales pitch. The fans immediately pushed back, and the results of the push back was successful rather quickly. The prices were adjusted, Petrovek took the position out west, and as expected Calgary sold the ECHL franchise, thankfully to local owners. As a result today Adirondack has a new affiliation familiar to regional fans from their days in nearby Albany. Attendance has been improving, and nobody seems to harbor the same disdain the fine folks of Manchester do, nor are they using the early hiccups as an excuse. The Upstate NY hockey fans are simply enjoying having ECHL hockey. Their attendance is right on par with both Binghamton and Utica's AHL team.

 

[210]

The person who wrote that article has it right, if you're a fan that wants to see a team whose primary concern is winning it's absolutely the ECHL over the AHL. He does have one thing wrong, in the in the AHL player costs are completely covered by their NHL affiliation agreement unless the AHL team asks otherwise (like Hershey and Chicago used to).

Here in Worcester one of the key marketing points was it wasn't the AHL that would have us watching some other far away organization's players and the local hockey operations folks having no say in anything, and that the ECHL is local ownership owning our own guys with a smattering of our affiliate's guys and our local hockey ops folks making all the decisions.

It seems to me the key to marketing an ECHL team would have been to market the Manchester part of the name and not the Monarchs name. Now the Monarchs name is all but dead there. Even if they can't get the Bruins affiliation they need to completely run away from the Monarchs name, or at the bare minimum completely change the logo/colors and try to start over that way.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

totally agree on both posts so far, Nightsquad, we know the inenpitude of Petrovek

 

[Hurricane Ron]

Great article. I wish all ECHL teams offered tickets at the same price as the Walleye. Fans in Toledo should be thankful; and no wonder they have the attendance figures they get.

 

[royals119]

I thought the same with their pricing. I just did that at my business. We have a service that was $39 and we were doing OK, but the volume was down a little year over year. It is our 20th year in business at this location, so I decided to run a "special" and dropped the price to $20. Over the last few weeks the numbers have doubled vs last year, and that was with no advertising - just explaining the special price to each client. If the numbers hadn't increased obviously I would have lost money, which is why I didn't advertise it to start, so I could easily drop it if it didn't work. My cost is fixed on this service, so it costs me the same every month if I do none, or 300, so is is not quite analogous to hockey tickets. But, if they cut their prices 40% and double their ticket sales, they are bringing in 20% more income immediately, but also filling the building, which makes a better experience, and over time increases sales even more. Plus if they get any cut of parking or concessions, those numbers go up too, and people who paid less for tickets will probably buy more merchandise, so it could work.

It is a scary proposition to try though, since if you don't see a lot more tickets, you end up really dropping your revenue, and it is a big public relations hit if you end up raising the prices up again.

 

[PCSPounder]

Screwy thing out here... Portland Winterhawks WHL and Stockton Heat AHL and Idaho Steelheads ECHL don't seem to differ much ticket price-wise. Of course, Stockton's demographics are likely to lead to underpriced hockey tickets FWIW.

It's my way of endorsing royals' comments about price-dropping; it's risky. There's no guarantee it solves anything in Manchester, for instance.

The Steelheads are the indicator species here. They're clearly rejecting whatever overtures Seattle might be making to them. They don't mind having the "affiliation" with Dallas for promotional purposes (and Dallas held camp in Boise during the fall), but the affiliation is minimal. Not quite meaningless, but the Steelheads can act to run their show towards winning over affiliation (and there's a couple Kelly Cup banners for reinforcement of this). Whether every ECHL market enjoys this might make for a different answer, and we are not talking about any substantial league expansion anytime soon. However, that seems to be an advantage you can tout in all this.

 

[GindyDraws]

While there are some people on here (*cough*Utica fans*cough*) that deride the ECHL as an inferior product and have made it clear that they choose to refuse it as an option and would rather accept no hockey over "sub-par" hockey, I have grown to despise the AHL. Granted, it's obviously due to my known hatred of the Pacific Division and the fact that there exists an imbalanced schedule, but I am happy supporting the ECHL brand.

 

[Tater Tot]

While there are some people on here (*cough*Utica fans*cough*) that deride the ECHL as an inferior product and have made it clear that they choose to refuse it as an option and would rather accept no hockey over "sub-par" hockey

In my own opinion, I think Utica's day will come when the AHL leaves town. Fans will point to the new 6 year agreement signed, but won't talk about the fact that there is an out at the 2 and 4 year mark of that agreement.

 

[Avsrule2022]

Man I miss the old CHL schedule. 64 games. 32 home games is plenty for a season ticket holder. And with playoffs lasting up to 8 weeks long, 76 or 72 is too many. I love the Pacific Division schedule. First 2 months of the season was home games every other Fri and Sat. Fantastic. I could see them going to 72 when the Seattle affiliate team joins the division.

That being said, I loved the E and anyone who would turn it down as "inferior" deserves what they get: no hockey.

 

[royals119]

Man I miss the old CHL schedule. 64 games. 32 home games is plenty for a season ticket holder. And with playoffs lasting up to 8 weeks long, 76 or 72 is too many. I love the Pacific Division schedule. First 2 months of the season was home games every other Fri and Sat. Fantastic. I could see them going to 72 when the Seattle affiliate team joins the division.

That being said, I loved the E and anyone who would turn it down as "inferior" deserves what they get: no hockey.

I agree, 62 would be good, or even 60 is plenty. The Royals play 15 games on Mon. Tue, or Wed this season. (7 home, 8 away). I could do without all of those. I'd even pay the same for my season ticket package despite the lighter schedule. I can't get my wife to go to the weeknight games any more, so I'm wasting those tickets anyway. The team could cut costs, and sell the group tickets on the other weekend nights. The problem is that their biggest cost is probably player payroll and equipment, and that isn't going to change with less games. The travel savings and game night savings for home games probably wouldn't cover the loss of income if they dropped season ticket packages - and for the few teams that are drawing well on weeknights they would be taking a loss to help out the weaker teams.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Toledo is an incredible success story. They are the most successful ECHL franchise by a country mile. They outdraw everyone by a wide margin (please don't take Ft. Wayne's attendance numbers seriously-they're a fiction).

Major selling points for the ECHL:

1) Winning a high priority
2) Much more fighting and physicality compared to the AHL
3) Cheaper tickets

AHL main selling points:
1) Get to see NHLers on the way up and down
2) Overall quality of play

I grew up on the NHL and the WHA. It took me a while to get accustomed to the lower level of play, but now I thoroughly enjoy it. I go to a lot of NHL games each year in Columbus, but as the NHL has been "Bettmanized" and fighting and hard checking becomes less and less each year, I find myself enjoying ECHL games a little more than I do NHL games. I never thought I'd say that, but that's where it is for me now.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Man I miss the old CHL schedule. 64 games. 32 home games is plenty for a season ticket holder. And with playoffs lasting up to 8 weeks long, 76 or 72 is too many. I love the Pacific Division schedule. First 2 months of the season was home games every other Fri and Sat. Fantastic. I could see them going to 72 when the Seattle affiliate team joins the division.

That being said, I loved the E and anyone who would turn it down as "inferior" deserves what they get: no hockey.

One of the great benefits of Cincinnati Cyclones season tickets is that unused tickets can be used for any other home game. So missing games just is an opportunity to bring friends to other games.

The Cyclones can do it because US Bank Arena has a capacity of over 15,000 so it doesn't cost the team any revenue when they're re-used because sell outs happen never-actually 1 in 40+ years of hockey at the facility. In fact it adds to it because of the concessions/merchandising revenues that the previously unused tickets bring.

 

[royals119]

One of the great benefits of Cincinnati Cyclones season tickets is that unused tickets can be used for any other home game. So missing games just is an opportunity to bring friends to other games.

The Cyclones can do it because US Bank Arena has a capacity of over 15,000 so it doesn't cost the team any revenue when they're re-used because sell outs happen never-actually 1 in 40+ years of hockey at the facility. In fact it adds to it because of the concessions/merchandising revenues that the previously unused tickets bring.

The Royals do the same, so I do make use of my unused tickets one way or another, although the friends I give them to don't show up about half the time, which just annoys me. I'm actually going to start having a weekly raffle at my office, so any clients who are interested can enter to win six tickets to an upcoming game.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

The Royals do the same, so I do make use of my unused tickets one way or another, although the friends I give them to don't show up about half the time, which just annoys me. I'm actually going to start having a weekly raffle at my office, so any clients who are interested can enter to win six tickets to an upcoming game.

Creative use of your tix.

Royals haven't been the same since the dismissal of Larry the Legend.

 

[GindyDraws]

Toledo is an incredible success story. They are the most successful ECHL franchise by a country mile. They outdraw everyone by a wide margin (please don't take Ft. Wayne's attendance numbers seriously-they're a fiction).

Major selling points for the ECHL:

1) Winning a high priority
2) Much more fighting and physicality compared to the AHL
3) Cheaper tickets

AHL main selling points:
1) Get to see NHLers on the way up and down
2) Overall quality of play

I grew up on the NHL and the WHA. It took me a while to get accustomed to the lower level of play, but now I thoroughly enjoy it. I go to a lot of NHL games each year in Columbus, but as the NHL has been "Bettmanized" and fighting and hard checking becomes less and less each year, I find myself enjoying ECHL games a little more than I do NHL games. I never thought I'd say that, but that's where it is for me now.

As an Indy fan, I take just about everything Fort Wayne does as fiction. We try to do 2 and 3 pretty well. 1 has been exceptionally hard, but in year 5, being third in the division, and actually above the Komets in the standings is something we want to be at. Indianapolis has shown itself as a hockey market; it's all about the commitment.

Unfortunately, I've only had the luxury of going to one Fuel game this season so far as opposed to six games as well as the All-Star Game last year, but that's due to me starting school and also dealing with depression bouts. I aim to make right by going to at least two more this season.

 

[JMCx4]

... Unfortunately, I've only had the luxury of going to one Fuel game this season so far as opposed to six games as well as the All-Star Game last year, but that's due to me starting school and also dealing with depression bouts. I aim to make right by going to at least two more this season.

I hope you meet ALL of your goals soon, JDog. Watching hockey can be a great healing influence, and the Farmers Coliseum is a positive environment for the activity (ignoring that Chelsea Dagger ). Good luck.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Toledo is an incredible success story. They are the most successful ECHL franchise by a country mile. They outdraw everyone by a wide margin (please don't take Ft. Wayne's attendance numbers seriously-they're a fiction).

Major selling points for the ECHL:

1) Winning a high priority
2) Much more fighting and physicality compared to the AHL
3) Cheaper tickets

AHL main selling points:
1) Get to see NHLers on the way up and down
2) Overall quality of play

I grew up on the NHL and the WHA. It took me a while to get accustomed to the lower level of play, but now I thoroughly enjoy it. I go to a lot of NHL games each year in Columbus, but as the NHL has been "Bettmanized" and fighting and hard checking becomes less and less each year, I find myself enjoying ECHL games a little more than I do NHL games. I never thought I'd say that, but that's where it is for me now.

ECHL teams can hire their own staff that was a great plus for Worcester because they brought in staff who knew the market.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Another great thing about the ECHL compared to the AHL is the one ref vs. two. There was a ton of behind the play stickwork last night during the Cyclones 7-1 win over Tulsa. Lots of skirmishes and facials behind the play. In the two ref police state of the AHL or NHL, that stuff doesn't happen anymore.

 

[JMCx4]

Another great thing about the ECHL compared to the AHL is the one ref vs. two. There was a ton of behind the play stickwork last night during the Cyclones 7-1 win over Tulsa. Lots of skirmishes and facials behind the play. In the two ref police state of the AHL or NHL, that stuff doesn't happen anymore.

That difference won't last much longer.

 

[210]

That difference won't last much longer.

Not sure how that will be possible. Right now there aren't enough competent referees for the ECHL to have one per game.

 

[JMCx4]

Not sure how that will be possible. Right now there aren't enough competent referees for the ECHL to have one per game.

Fans will never be satisfied with the officiating, no matter how many or how few officials are wearing stripes every night nor how many of them make "the right calls." Meanwhile I'm anticipating NHL & AHL expansion requiring more on-ice officials, which will require the ECHL & SPHL to employ more refs (and linesmen) to be ready to fill the openings. The ECHL deploying two referees to at least some of their games seems to me like a natural progression to getting the crews used to working conditions at the higher levels. And then there's always The Peter Principle coming into play.

 

[crimsonace]

Screwy thing out here... Portland Winterhawks WHL and Stockton Heat AHL and Idaho Steelheads ECHL don't seem to differ much ticket price-wise. Of course, Stockton's demographics are likely to lead to underpriced hockey tickets FWIW.

I wouldn't expect a huge difference in prices between levels, because the vast majority of the costs in minor pro hockey are in rent, operations (transportation, hotels), staff salaries and front office personnel, which really don't vary much from level to level as the buildings are about the same size and those costs aren't going to change much from level to level. When Indy went from CHL to USHL, I was told the costs went *up* because the costs for scouting and billeting players were higher than the CHL player salaries + housing fees. There's an uptick in player costs from ECHL to AHL, but nearly all of the scouting is done by, and salaries are paid by, the NHL team. The AHL team's main personnel costs are the 5-6 players on AHL contracts. If those average to $50K/person, you're looking at $250-300K/year, which is about the same as the player payroll for an entire ECHL team for a season (not counting the housing costs, which the ECHL team has to cover but the AHL team does not).