Why retooling is the best option for the Habs

[LaP]

How about a reset cause that's what The Idiot said when he announced to the world he didn't believe in windows.

Literally speaking a reset would not make sense. A reset would basically be keeping the same core and try again by shuffling the lines and such. When you reset a PC it stays the same. It just try again to do the things correctly. When you reset an odometer it stays the same. It just starts again from his original state. For fun let's take the words literally. Let's use computer science as an example :

- If you rebuild a PC tower you'll change everything. Maybe you'll keep the case but that's it. You're not rebuilding your PC if you don't change the whole thing. It's the equivalent of trading Price, Weber and Patch and rebuild with picks and young players.
- If you "retool" maybe you'll change the gpu, add some ram but you'll surely keep at least the case and the motherboard minimum or else it's a rebuild. It's the equivalent of adding Tavares to replace Danault.
- If you tweak you keep the same PC. You might overclock the cpu and gpu, turn some services off in windows, update the bios, ... It's the equivalent of making minor changes while mostly keeping the same team like graduating Juulsen on a 3rd pairing and moving Drouin to the wing and replacing him by a UFA not much better than him or Danault.
- If you reset you keep the same PC and you make no change. You just reset and hope the PC will do the job right this time. It's the equivalent of doing nothing and hoping Price will do the job next season.

 

[Sorinth]

Rebuilding is mostly tearing down the old core and building a new one (mostly with the assumption that the new core is from drafting/developing). Retooling is making aggressive changes to the roster but sticking with the core that was already there.

Boston for instance retooled. They still have the core of Bergeron, Marchand ,Krejci, Chara and Rask that made the finals in 2013.

Unless Montreal is taking more than a couple of pieces from the core (Pacioretty, Gallagher, Weber, Price, Galchenyuk, Drouin) then it isn't a rebuild.

Well Bergevin already did the tear down portion by getting rid of Subban, Markov, Radulov, Sergachev, we just never did rebuild portion.

When you retool, most of your best players are still your best players, like how Boston's best players are still Begereon, Marchand. In our case the new guys are all supposed to be our best players. Our team won't be built around Weber/Pacioretty/Drouin it will be built around Tavares & Dahlin. Sure some of those players will stick around in lesser support roles, but it's irrelevant, the team will be built with a completetly different image.

EDIT: If instead of Tavares we go out and get Stastny or O'Reilly that would be a retool, because the guy we are adding is at a similar level to our existing top players.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I agree. I think Vegas has made a lot of so called pro scouts look foolish. Either that or Gallant is a genius.

There's no science to scouting and it really is mostly guessing and hoping that the kid works out. My argument is and always will be, why does a pro scout think that kid A has more potential than kid B? Does kid A have more $$ in order to get more development than kid B? Why not raise the draft age to 22 so that you will get mostly what you are seeing thus eliminating most of the guess work.

Gallant has been incredible, but advanced stats pointed to guys like Marchy, Smith, Miller and Schmidt being excellent players that deserved more playtime. And that's ignoring Karlsson's insane season, good vets like Fleury, Perron and Neal and the young guys the team actually wanted that we know had great upside.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Well Bergevin already did the tear down portion by getting rid of Subban, Markov, Radulov, Sergachev, we just never did rebuild portion.

When you retool, most of your best players are still your best players, like how Boston's best players are still Begereon, Marchand. In our case the new guys are all supposed to be our best players. Our team won't be built around Weber/Pacioretty/Drouin it will be built around Tavares & Dahlin. Sure some of those players will stick around in lesser support roles, but it's irrelevant, the team will be built with a completetly different image.

Well, tearing down for a retool is about getting assets back. Markov and Radulov walked, Subban got Weber who is still a really good player despite being worse and older than Subban. And trading Sergachev for Drouin isn't really a retool move, its just a trade.

And in the very unlikely event that Montreal gets Dahlin and Tavares, Montreal will be building around them AND Weber/Price/Drouin/Gallagher and maybe Pacioretty and Galchenyuk. Much like Boston added guys like McAvoy, Carlo and Pastrnak to their pre-existing core.

 

[Habs Icing]

Literally speaking a reset would not make sense. A reset would basically be keeping the same core and try again by shuffling the lines and such. When you reset a PC it stays the same. It just try again to do the things correctly. When you reset an odometer it stays the same. It just starts again from his original state. For fun let's take the words literally. Let's use computer science as an example :

- If you rebuild a PC tower you'll change everything. Maybe you'll keep the case but that's it. You're not rebuilding your PC if you don't change the whole thing. It's the equivalent of trading Price, Weber and Patch and rebuild with picks and young players.
- If you "retool" maybe you'll change the gpu, add some ram but you'll surely keep at least the case and the motherboard minimum or else it's a rebuild. It's the equivalent of adding Tavares to replace Danault.
- If you tweak you keep the same PC. You might overclock the cpu and gpu, turn some services off in windows, update the bios, ... It's the equivalent of making minor changes while mostly keeping the same team like graduating Juulsen on a 3rd pairing and moving Drouin to the wing and replacing him by a UFA not much better than him or Danault.
- If you reset you keep the same PC and you make no change. You just reset and hope the PC will do the job right this time. It's the equivalent of doing nothing and hoping Price will do the job next season.

Well that's what the Idiot promised us in the mid-season presser. A reset.

 

[OldCraig71]

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I did watch, and I am watching. The Habs could not score. But compare the line up in last years playoffs to what we would have now. Add Tavares. The D is younger and faster. Add a top 5 pick from this years draft. All of which are NHL ready.
Hypothetical roster: Lets say habs and sabres make a deal involving Pacioretty and Oreilly and they win the lottery.
( Again, hypothetical)

Drouin-Tavares-Gallagher
Galchenyuk- O'Reilly-Scherbak
Lehkonen-Danault-Hudon
Byron-De La Rose-Shaw
Deslauriers

Dahlin-Weber
Mete-Petry
Alzner-Juulsen
Reilly

Price
Lindgren

Is that not a line up that could compete each and every night? I cant see how tanking for 3 years gets you anything guaranteed like this.

An improbable hypothetical you call a guarantee??

Please stop posting before you make an ass of yourself even further.

 

[habsgirl5000]

re-tooling?.......LOL!!

yeah lets "re-tool" for another 25 years!!....see where that gets us!!!

after another 25 years we can make the decision to rebuild,

you think the leafs stanley cup drought has been long?.....we will be breaking their record!!

 

[Sorinth]

Well, tearing down for a retool is about getting assets back. Markov and Radulov walked, Subban got Weber who is still a really good player despite being worse and older than Subban. And trading Sergachev for Drouin isn't really a retool move, its just a trade.

And in the very unlikely event that Montreal gets Dahlin and Tavares, Montreal will be building around them AND Weber/Price/Drouin/Gallagher and maybe Pacioretty and Galchenyuk. Much like Boston added guys like McAvoy, Carlo and Pastrnak to their pre-existing core.

Isn't tearing down and then retooling simply rebuilding?

You may have missed my edit, but it's about quality of the new players vs the current ones. The guys Boston added are of similar quality to their existing ones, so it certainly fits more along the retooling lines (Though some would argue they actually just had a short rebuild). When talking about Tavares/Dahlin only Price is even a comparable, everyone else is a step well below.

Regardless it doesn't matter what we call it, the only way we can avoid a stretch of terrible seasons is to add several elite players. If we only add good instead of elite players like say Stastny we won't go anywhere.

 

[mariolemieux66]

Not sure if signing a free agent to a 13mil contract is the way to go.

 

[Milhouse40]

They were dead last in the league.

We were actually the team that was lucky as we drafted 5th overall while making the playoffs that year.

They were deadlast the year prior....there's was no season that year...so yeah, they were lucky

 

[LaP]

They were deadlast the year prior....there's was no season that year...so yeah, they were lucky

They were dead last the last season before the lottery. The fact there was no season before the lottery did not magically make their team any better. Their kids and their vets were one year older as it was for all the other teams.

 

[Electricity]

I don't see where you disagree. BOTH Ds can be short of being serviceable.

Lol yeah, you're technically right. I was just disagreeing with their view that the Habs D was serviceable.

 

[lo striver]

that article is about

 

[Burke the Legend]

I've said it often that, for the forward group, there aren't many players that I dislike. Too many of them aren't slotted properly and they're too small as a group.

Gallaguer - love him as the second line RW and on the second PP.
Byron - love him as the third line LW and on the PK.
Galchenyuk - love him but not with JDLR and Lekhonen.
Lekhonen - love him as the third line RW.
Danault - love him as the third line C and on the PK.
Drouin - great as the second line LW and on PP.
Shaw - too much coin but effective on the third line, maybe even fourth.
JDLR - 4th line center.
Deslauriers - love him on the 4th.
Hudon - love him on the 3rd.
Paccioretty - one bad season. Would love to see him play top LW with a real #1 center.
Scherbak - sometimes love him right up to second line RW, sometimes think he's better off in the AHL for another year.

Anyways, all this to say that we have too many small third line players that I actually like and we're missing a 1st line center and a 2nd line center and we're gold, gold I tells ya.

Buddy, Gallagher just scored 30 goals, he's not a 2nd liner. This is getting ridiculous. Byron is not a 3rd liner either.

I know it's "cool" to dump hard on the club right now but they actually have decent depth and talent on the wings.

 

[Laurentide]

How about a reset cause that's what The Idiot said when he announced to the world he didn't believe in windows.

Maybe he was just saying that he doesn't believe that Windows is better than Linux.

Seriously though, just because Bergevin doesn't believe in the concept of windows doesn't mean they aren't a real thing. When he was hired he was looking at a 5 year window. It's only when he finished the 5 years without success that he suddenly decided that windows don't exist. He's just looking for an indefinite mandate to keep chasing his own tail.

 

[Ozmodiar]

With regards to a rebuild, I think a little too much emphasis is placed on where they finish in the standings.

The objective should be to collect several 1st and 2nd round picks for 2 or 3 seasons, divesting of players who will be looking for big raises or who won't be a core piece 3 years down the line. If they do that, their draft position will be high enough to find good players.

There's a lot of good talent from mid 1st to mid 2nd round - players often discussed here, such as Barzal, Chabot, Eriksson Ek, McAvoy, Borgstrom, Steel, Kyrou, Thomas, Tolvanen, Chytil.

Bergevin has a good start on this with his 4 2nd round picks. If they can add another 1st and prospect for Max, that will help. Other players they could look at, perhaps next season, would be Byron, Petry and Shaw.

In the meantime, scout the European leagues, keep FA signings to short terms, sell at TDL's.

2 or 3 years from now, hit the FA market and make trades to fill needs.

 

[Milhouse40]

They were dead last the last season before the lottery. The fact there was no season before the lottery did not magically make their team any better. Their kids and their vets were one year older as it was for all the other teams.

They would have added Malkin right away.
But that beside the point. To get the 1st overall back then, you needed to finished deadlast. It was a pure lottery. Everybody who got a top 10 pick that year were lucky.

But lets just not act like it was their plans all along.

 

[BLONG7]

Bottom line: you can't rebuild, reset, retool, re-anything by relying upon the same individuals that got you to the place we're at and that have not been able to fix anything in 6 off seasons, but have actually made things worse.

The team will only be as good as its decision-makers. Handing more draft picks to incompetents or more cap room, only provides them with a bigger margin for error but doesn't change their proven propensity to burn the team's resources while other teams are stealing players right under their noses or doing so much more with a lot less latitude, staff, budget, etc.

This.........is why people are furious...........and Molson, sits and watches?? WTF?

 

[Runner77]

Not sure if signing a free agent to a 13mil contract is the way to go.

Let's play the what-if game and assume that such a UFA is actually willing to sign with Montreal, which I don't believe will happen, but whatever.

For a GM on a short leash who is going to do everything to save his job? Absolutely, yes. Signing an expensive UFA is the only way to go.

For an organization without quality disposable depth? Absolutely, spend to the cap, hand over fist and overpay for a UFA.

For an organization starved for a star quality forward? Absolutely.

For a GM who should be wary about wanting to maximize the prime years or whatever prime years there are for Weber and also in consideration of Price's prime years as he's going to be 30 years old to start the season - no question, the answer is absolutely yes.

No matter what their secret plan is or what they call it, reset or preset, there are no two ways around this -- Bergevin's tenure is on the line and he has two expensive players locked in into their 30s that will be useless if they remain with the team and if the team went for a rebuild.

Add to this the high probability that the major reason ownership is not being overly aggressive with Bergevin and is showing some patience still, is the elephant in the room, one that would cost in the neighborhood of $40-$50 Million to bring in a new GM, who would then want to replace all the sycophants and country club members that Bergevin extended last summer.

Finally, Bergevin has little interest in improving the team 3 or 4 years from now when he won't be around to see it. We're condemned to play the short game.

 

[ItzaGreat]

Let's play the what-if game and assume that such a UFA is actually willing to sign with Montreal, which I don't believe will happen, but whatever.

Finally, Bergevin has little interest in improving the team 3 or 4 years from now when he won't be around to see it. We're condemned to play the short game.

Tavares at 14 millions incoming.

 

[BLONG7]

Let's play the what-if game and assume that such a UFA is actually willing to sign with Montreal, which I don't believe will happen, but whatever.

For a GM on a short leash who is going to do everything to save his job? Absolutely, yes. Signing an expensive UFA is the only way to go.

For an organization without quality disposable depth? Absolutely, spend to the cap, hand over fist and overpay for a UFA.

For an organization starved for a star quality forward? Absolutely.

For a GM who should be wary about wanting to maximize the prime years or whatever prime years there are for Weber and also in consideration of Price's prime years as he's going to be 30 years old to start the season - no question, the answer is absolutely yes.

No matter what their secret plan is or what they call it, reset or preset, there are no two ways around this -- Bergevin's tenure is on the line and he has two expensive players locked in into their 30s that will be useless if they remain with the team and if the team went for a rebuild.

Add to this the high probability that the major reason ownership is not being overly aggressive with Bergevin and is showing some patience still, is the elephant in the room, one that would cost in the neighborhood of $40-$50 Million to bring in a new GM, who would then want to replace all the sycophants and country club members that Bergevin extended last summer.

Finally, Bergevin has little interest in improving the team 3 or 4 years from now when he won't be around to see it. We're condemned to play the short game.

This is now all on Molson..................this is exactly the reason, we need a real hockey guy as President of hockey operations...
There have been sooooooooo many bad decisions made by MB and Molson. I would think Molson's board of directors, are not amused.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Our window has passed. Forget re-tooling and start rebuilding. If we were going to go for it, it should've happened last summer. Instead we had the worst offseason that I can remember. We had our shot and we blew it.

Scrap everything and start over...

 

[mariolemieux66]

Tavares at 14 millions incoming.

Where is the puke emoticon?

 

[groovejuice]

Where is the puke emoticon?

Compliments of @Runner77

http://www.forumice.com/images/smilies/puke.gif in image tags