Why not Dion in Sochi?

[The Blue Devil]

Dude unlike NHL international hockey is not a cap world. World class players play on the team i.e. Crossby won't have lame line-mates. All of them will be bonafide superstars. Can you imagine a russian line of Kovy-Geno-Ovie? lol. That is just such bad ass line. Dion is good but there are much better Ds than Dion for Sochi. I want the medal NOT bragging rights of how a leaf player represented Canada.

Country > Club

Russia iced that line up vs Csnada at the last Olympics, didn't work out to well.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Overall Game PK will be much better than Dion when he finishes his career IMO. At present I will give Dion the benefit of the doubt for sure. FYI I wasn't commenting about PK and Dion. Was just saying that PK is a Stud.

Another case:

Norris Karlsson is also benched when trying to protect the lead OR killing penalties.

What's your point? The Norris doesn't even represent the best Dmen now, just the ones who can score, if the league had any integrity they wouldn't hand it out to players like Subban or Karlsson. How can you call anyone a high quality defenseman if they can't even be counted on to protect a lead?

 

[Al14]

What's your point? The Norris doesn't even represent the best Dmen now, just the ones who can score, if the league had any integrity they wouldn't hand it out to players like Subban or Karlsson. How can you call anyone a high quality defenseman if they can't even be counted on to protect a lead?

Exactly. They have cheapened the Norris so much by giving out to the highest point producing defensemen without any consideration to that D-man actually being able to play sound defense.

The Norris Trophy winner should be awarded to the best all rounded D-man IMHO. Goals and assists should play a minor role in winner determination.

 

[The Blue Devil]

The thing that I find funny about some people is that they bash Phaneuf for not fighting enough and it's a reason why he's not great, yet they also praise Subban for being so great yet he turtles at even the slightest thought of having to fight. He's a coward and I have absolutely no respect for him got that reason alone. The guy talks **** and hides the moment he has to answer for his antics.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Exactly. They have cheapened the Norris so much by giving out to the highest point producing defensemen without any consideration to that D-man actually being able to play sound defense.

The Norris Trophy winner should be awarded to the best all rounded D-man IMHO. Goals and assits should play a minor role in winner determination.

It's gone off a cliff since Lidstrom retired.

 

[Cor]

At the very least, create a trophy for the best defensive d-man, and the best offensive d-man

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

The thing that I find funny about some people is that they bash Phaneuf for not fighting enough and it's a reason why he's not great, yet they also praise Subban for being so great yet he turtles at even the slightest thought of having to fight. He's a coward and I have absolutely no respect for him got that reason alone. The guy talks **** and hides the moment he has to answer for his antics.

Phaneuf has fought more than other D-men of his class

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

At age 24:

P.Subban: 224gms, 35gls, 133pts, 292ht, 303bk, 23:26 (82gms, 13gls, 49pts, 107ht, 111bk)
D.Phaneuf: 404gms, 77gls, 238pts, 947ht, 451bk, 24:54 (82gms, 16gls, 48pts, 192ht, 92bk)

PK's gotta lotta work to do to catch up.

Phaneuf never won a Norris even with those stats, and every knows Phaneuf today is hardly like the player he was at age 22/23.

But you bring up a good point - Subban does play a lot like Phaneuf used to, and is even a better skater than Phaneuf ever was. So there's no debating that he should be there. Should Phaneuf? Frankly, I don't really care that much. If he does make it, it's probably as a 7th/8th D only seeing limited action. If he doesn't, he'll rest up for the remainder of the season, no big loss. If anything, it's better for the Leafs if he doesn't go, and Team Canada has more than enough talent that they won't miss him (especially at RD which is totally stacked).

 

[Puckstuff]

What's your point? The Norris doesn't even represent the best Dmen now, just the ones who can score, if the league had any integrity they wouldn't hand it out to players like Subban or Karlsson. How can you call anyone a high quality defenseman if they can't even be counted on to protect a lead?

I agree with this... the norris should be going to guys like Suter, Weber, Chara, Doughty

 

[Raym11]

uh why is Subban being bashed in here? He was Norris worthy last year. The guy was the best defenceman in the league regardless of points. Suter was close but didnt win. Maybe because Subban is more "pizazz" and loud with his play. Maybe not. He still was deserving.


The problem with Phaneuf is because of how he used to be and how he is now. His points and goals have dropped, and he is always seen for the bad plays he makes as a "classic Phaneuf". It's just how people see him now. Once you have too many seasons where you underperform your expectations (his first 3 years in the league everyone expected him to keep improving everywhere), you're stuck there with the media and fans.



Phaneuf is not what everyone projected him to be so that will always be something subconsciously affecting how people view him. The last couple years have been his best in Toronto and outside of his first couple in the league. He's improving and we see it, it doesn't matter if nobody else recognizes it. as long as we do and he is helping the team win why do we care what other people think of his skill


this is coming from me the guy who has had phaneuf sucks (previously kessel sucks) in his avatar for like 2 years now. I see him graduating from that position very soon, just like Kessel did. It is a great honor to graduate from the "_____ Sucks" avatar.




edit - Another good example of 2 players who will forever be **** on by media and fans regardless of if they ever improve: Luke Schenn & Tyler Myers. It's the downfall of coming into the league with a bang and then not continuing to progress every year into some Bionic Superstar. Schenn moreso on his physical play and everyone expecting him to be an elite shutdown d-man. Myers was supposed to use his size to dominate and only improve on that after his rookie season.

 

[diceman934]

What's your point? The Norris doesn't even represent the best Dmen now, just the ones who can score, if the league had any integrity they wouldn't hand it out to players like Subban or Karlsson. How can you call anyone a high quality defenseman if they can't even be counted on to protect a lead?

If Dion won it .....it would be legit on this board.....Subban is better then you and others can admit to. He plays in all situations 5 on 5 and more minutes then Dion.....

 

[The Blue Devil]

Phaneuf has fought more than other D-men of his class

I know, I'm on his side, was just pointing out how much flaw is on some people's arguments that he doesn't fight enough when golden boy Subban hides like a ***** at the thought of it. Phaneuf should never fight unless it takes out someone of equal value IMO.

 

[Raym11]

I know, I'm on his side, was just pointing out how much flaw is on some people's arguments that he doesn't fight enough when golden boy Subban hides like a ***** at the thought of it. Phaneuf should never fight unless it takes out someone of equal value IMO.

Neither should Subban. Which leaves even less people to fight

 

[diceman934]

I know, I'm on his side, was just pointing out how much flaw is on some people's arguments that he doesn't fight enough when golden boy Subban hides like a ***** at the thought of it. Phaneuf should never fight unless it takes out someone of equal value IMO.

What does fighting have to do with who is a better player? Unless we are talking about fighters, then the best fighter would be the better player. Subban is better then Dion as a hockey player, that is not a slight against Dion....as Subban won the Norris last year.

 

[The Blue Devil]

If Dion won it .....it would be legit on this board.....Subban is better then you and others can admit to. He plays in all situations 5 on 5 and more minutes then Dion.....

If Phaneuf were to win, this year especially, it wouldn't be because of the points he put up. And as brought up before, Subban is never out defending a close lead and for good reason while Phaneuf is out for all situations.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Neither should Subban. Which leaves even less people to fight

My problem isn't that he doesn't fight, it's that he starts **** and turtles when someone try's to fight him, it's disgraceful and pathetic.

 

[zeke]

Phaneuf never won a Norris even with those stats, and every knows Phaneuf today is hardly like the player he was at age 22/23.

yeah, he only finished 2nd in norris voting. what a bum.

But you bring up a good point - Subban does play a lot like Phaneuf used to, and is even a better skater than Phaneuf ever was. So there's no debating that he should be there. Should Phaneuf? Frankly, I don't really care that much. If he does make it, it's probably as a 7th/8th D only seeing limited action. If he doesn't, he'll rest up for the remainder of the season, no big loss. If anything, it's better for the Leafs if he doesn't go, and Team Canada has more than enough talent that they won't miss him (especially at RD which is totally stacked).

Subban scores like Phaneuf used to, but doesn't have the physical or defensive game that Phaneuf has always had.

 

[hersky77]

yeah, he only finished 2nd in norris voting. what a bum.



Subban scores like Phaneuf used to, but doesn't have the physical or defensive game that Phaneuf has always had.

I am not here to troll, I'm not here to bash phaneuf, all i am here is to have a productive argument regarding this.

I have watched both these players many times, and I have seen both these players at their highs and their lows, but to say PK does not have the defensive game that dion has is not true at all. PK has only gotten better defensively since he was rookie, and dion is only showing this year that he can play like he used to in Calgary.

Both of these guys are their #1's on their respective teams, but to say that PK is no where near Dion defensively is awfully wrong.

 

[zeke]

It is absolutely true, actually.

and it's exactly why he's never led his own team in minutes, receives the least PK minutes on his team, and only the 4th toughest quality of competition on his own team.

Meanwhile, Phaneuf is #1 in icetime in every situation. At even strength, on the PP, and on the PK. And at even strength he faces the toughest quality of competition in the league, and he's leading both special teams to near the top of the league rankings.

 

[Bluelines]

He is a defender better suited for the small NHL ice, his skating skills are below average, this would be a big liability on the big Olympic. He is a great defender on the small ice, but he would be a liability on the big ice.

 

[Bluelines]

PK gets benched during the final minutes of a game when they are trying to protect a lead, Dion does not.

Offence+Speed PK>Dion

Overall Game PK< Dion

You have to have very good skating skills, I've been Subban's biggest critic but his game is clearly better suited to the big ice than Dion's.

I'd take Dion all day every day over Subban on the small ice but I'd take Subban over Dion all day on Olympic ice.

Maybe Dion goes as a 6/7 guy used mostly in PK situations?

 

[diceman934]

You have to have very good skating skills, I've been Subban's biggest critic but his game is clearly better suited to the big ice than Dion's.

I'd take Dion all day every day over Subban on the small ice but I'd take Subban over Dion all day on Olympic ice.

Maybe Dion goes as a 6/7 guy used mostly in PK situations?

I would take Subban period.....any size ice.

 

[mikebel111*]

I would take Subban period.....any size ice.

Im sorry what?

I wonder if u want dion out of here because he is blocking rielly in the future for #1D.

Dion is much better than subban

 

[o Oblivious]

IMO neither Dion or PK or Vlasic are going to get the call for the Olympics.

Doughty - Weber
Keith - Seabrook
Letang - Pietrangelo
Boyle

Doughty/Weber/Keith: no explanation required really. If you need one, well, they are much, much better then PK/Dion/Vlasic.

Seabrook: shutdown D-man who can easily play with Keith. Likely to be the top PKer in Sochi (along with Keith)

Letang: likely the PP specialist. Has a better shot making the team due to already having PP chemistry with Crosby. Likely to see him + Weber on the first PP unit.

Pietrangelo: strong two way d-man. He will probably be the #6 on the roster who will see some PK time, but likely no PP time

Boyle: elder statesman of the group. He will be the Niedermayer of Sochi. Likely not the captain, but wouldn't rule out him patrolling the blue line with an A.

The problem with either PK or Dion getting the call to Sochi is that Canada already has a very, very strong top 4 that are likely going (Doughty, Weber, Keith, Pietrangelo) barring injury and are going to eat up the most minutes. So the only way they are making the roster is if they are to fill a niche on the team. The PP specialist is more likely to go to Letang then Subban. The PK specialist is more likely to go to Seabrook then Dion.

2016 will be Subban's time to shine though. He gets shafted for this one.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Im sorry what?

I wonder if u want dion out of here because he is blocking rielly in the future for #1D.

Dion is much better than subban

Ridiculous. Absolutely dumb statement. Phaneuf is better than the Norris winning defenceman who averages almost a point a game. Okay. BTW...ppg are important when your biggest attribute is being an offensive defenceman. Why is that hard to understand? Defensively Subban may also be better. Certainly no worse.