Why is there an incorrect widespread impression that players don't like Torts

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

You hated Scotty Bowman 364 days a year, and on day 365 you won the Cup.

 

[DuckyGirard]

"Seems like" being the operative phrase. This is another thread of HF talking out of it's posterior.
Torts has his flaws but he's a proven winner

You're trying to circumvent what I said.

I don't give two fluffs about whether or not he's likeable, my point is that his flaws are in direct opposition to competence.

He lacks emotional control, seems oblivious to his surroundings etc.

There's a huge difference between an iron will disciplined hardass, and some guy throwing temper tantrums any time he doesn't get his way.

who ends up getting buy in from most players. I say most, because no one person gets along with everyone and that goes for coaches and pro athletes.

There also seems to be some weird misconception that players and coaches or even players and players need to be buddies or blood brothers.

That's something you're making up and torts lovers seem to make up all the time.

There's a radical difference between tough love and a narcissist throwing temper tantrums.

That's not the case at all. They need to be on the same page working towards a common goal-that's it. If you don't buy into the team's goals and the team's culture you are an outlier and need to go. That's it.

Except you can't just say a player's an outlier and needs to go, in a world with a hard cap.

This is where being competent comes into play.

Especially when you want to trade an asset that you've publicly humiliated multiple times in a single season.

A massive part of being tough is emotional control and Torts lacks that. He's a narcissist who can't understand how his actions cause utter destruction.

Again not all narcissists are incompetent.

But when your temper tantrums create stupid problems like devaluing tradeable assets, you don't belong in the nhl.

 

[DuckyGirard]

It's not difficult to view Tort's career...and observe the cloud of drama, destruction, chaos, and players jumping ship, that appears to follow him in time, everywhere he goes. Combine that with what we as fans see of his abrasive personality, and overcompensating hardass persona publicly, plus piecing in snippets of what we hear from "inside the building" with these organizations as he's on the way out...It paints a pretty darn clear picture.

Yeah, it's really as simple as if you understand what a narcissist is. It's his beedy eyes that give away the level of contempt he has for people. It's one thing to be a narcissistic like Chris Pronger who has a playful self absorbed relationship with the media. It's clear that Chris Pronger can turn off the attention seeking, but with torts, you're really seeing the real him. He doesn't play with the media cause he can, he plays with the media because he's hostile to the idea that they are worth his time. That's not an attitude one can turn off.

Obviously he's got his "lead dogs", the guys he really likes and leans on, and respond to his leadership style. Those guys are going to be vocal supporters. But a handful of vocal "positive" experiences coming to light doesn't mean there isn't an iceberg of negative experiences under the surface.

Personally I'd probably be that guy, but as someone who can fall into that role in a heartbeat, I can easily admit that you turn blinders on. Those blinders are why people like torts are so appealing. They take care of all of your emotional concerns with one word answers. It's a great system if you don't want to think too hard.

The problem is...everything about him, points to him being the type of "boss" who treats people with disrespect and condescension to constantly reassert their position "in charge". The type who comes with the rigid narcissistic hierarchical mentality of "break them down, and rebuild them in my own image". The "my way, or the highway" inflexibility that is genuinely unpleasant to encounter, and highly ineffective in making the most of actual abilities of those under them, if they don't fit into that confined scope of "My Way". It's a dinosaur mode of thinking.

Yeah I donno, personally I'm perfectly cool with a dictatorial work environment. Which is the part that makes me so irritated by torts.

I'm a believer that all love is tough, soft love is just "like". Problem with a guy like torts is that you have to trust your leader, you have to know you're part of a war unit. Torts isn't a guy that you can trust, maybe you can be fooled, but his psyc profile can be read a mile away.

A simple thing like publicly benching Laine is supreme stupidity. You don't like a guy cool, trade him don't devalue the player before trying to get rid of him.

There's a reason he's gone.

The reality is, different people learn, and perform better under very different types of motivation. Good leadership requires flexibility and understanding what makes different people tick. That's the real reason coaches are generally shifting toward an outwardly "softer" and more "pliable" style. Because it's more effective across a broad section of different personalities. Not because players today are just a bunch of mentally weak snowflakes who need "coddling". And that doesn't mean those "softer" coaches are incapable of bringing the heat when it's needed, or for players who respond specifically to that type of motivation. It just outwardly doesn't show that way, because those types of coaches also tend to be perceptive enough to realize that being outwardly prickly and antagonistic toward the media and fans...isn't the way to get the most out of that relationship either.

Yeah you get mixed results. If creatively is required a open environment is best, but in short burst dictatorial action is best. Problem is as a coach you need both. You need to develop players all season long and snap come playoff time. Can't work if you're perpetually just trying to survive each game at a time.

 

[Enga Olly]

You hated Scotty Bowman 364 days a year, and on day 365 you won the Cup.

Ha - that was the quote that immediately came to mind when I started reading this thread.

I think fit is as important as anything. It's a tricky thing and fleeting. I think Babcock was initially a good fit in Toronto but that was only for the first 2-3 years. After that, nope. Same as Torts - right situation and for a limited time. Jullien, Hitchcock, Keenan etc etc. Coaches like Al Arbour are rare. Al Arbour - any team for any length of time, Q might be in that category too, we'll see about Brind'amour

 

[jcs0218]

You hated Scotty Bowman 364 days a year, and on day 365 you won the Cup.

Exactly. That has been said by Montreal Canadiens players.

I have the opinion of: You don't have to like your boss. (And honestly, you probably shouldn't like your boss too much; unless you are an ass-kisser). But, you need to respect your boss.

The players who "don't like" Tortorella? I feel that the problems most likely are problems with them. They either expect to be coddled, given preferential treatment, or both.

However, Tortorella has always seemed fair. For a boss, fairness is more more important than likeability, at least from the objective employee's standpoint. Nevermind the 5% or 10% who think that just because they asskiss or have a certain background, they will get better treatment. You have to disregard people like this. They have asskissed all their life, to varying degrees of success, and act like spoiled-brats the moment this strategy doesn't work for them once they run into a boss/manager that doesn't fall for their tactics.

However, the majority of objectively-minded employees just want fairness.

I suspect that the 5%-10% of high-profile cases is why Tortorella has a poor reputation. Because primadonnas likes Pierre-Luc Dubios were better in their heads than they actually are, and decided to sulk because Tortorella demanded more effort from them.

Did Dubois perform like the superstar he thinks he is after leaving Tortorella? Was Tortorella holding him back? Look at the results and form your own conclusions.

 

[summer tooth]

I just hope he's not mean to Mark Scheiffele if he goes to the Jets.

 

[majormajor]

Maybe because his players and even assistant coaches all ghosted him in the immediate aftermath of Tampa winning the 04 Cup? Direct quote from Torts:

Torts was especially tough on his players in his early years. I'm not surprised they didn't think to party with him.

But you ask Lecavalier and he'll tell you Torts was the best thing for him. You ask Marty and he'll tell you about how much he loves Torts, and keep talking about it until you've long since lost interest.

Because Tortorella is an unpleasant asshole. Not farfetched to think there are players, probably many, who do not like him.

They literally say the exact opposite of that, to a man. There are countless former players of his who will tell you he is one of the best most generous people they've ever met! That he is the exact opposite of the guy on tv.

John Tortorella isn't the professor that would write you a good recommendation though

He is exactly that type of guy to do everything for his players. He's exactly the type of guy to help people who need help, who aren't even his players or even know a thing about hockey.

I'm not giving you my opinion, I'm giving you the opinion of people who know him. Talk to Martin St. Louis. Talk to the Sedins, who still hang out with Torts! Talk to all the coaches that have worked with him.

Listen to Portzline and Lukan go on here. They shared a lot of Torts stories in this podcast episode that haven't been made public before.

 

[triggrman]

Where did I say anything about luxury cars? I didn’t and as has been discussed, it does depend on where you live. The cost of living in Naperville, Illinois is going to be a lot different than Broadview, Illinois.

Agreed. Market influence is real.
Average home price in the US is 264k. California and Hawaii are the highest at just over $550k.
Only 10.3% of the us population’s household income is above $200k per year. $69k is the median household income U.S. income distribution 2019 | Statista

Also he’s using Canadian dollars, so his $100k is your $82k

 

[TheFinalWord]

If you think Torts is a great coach and C's are going to get you a porsche I'm not sure we live on the same planet, lol.

Man you have a lot of bad takes. Hard work will get you 6 figures, regardless of your grades in college/university. People float through all the time, and figure out their life later. And yes, sometimes those teaches or professors you hated when you were younger, you come to appreciate more as you get older.

 

[ChuckLefley]

Agreed. Market influence is real.
Average home price in the US is 264k. California and Hawaii are the highest at just over $550k.
Only 10.3% of the us population’s household income is above $200k per year. $69k is the median household income U.S. income distribution 2019 | Statista

Also he’s using Canadian dollars, so his $100k is your $82k

Thanks, I totally forgot about CAD vs USD.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

"This guy keeps getting fired a lot and seems to have a short shelf life...

...IT MUST BE THE SNOWFLAKE MEDIA"

Yeah, Torts has really team-hopped, what with his 4 teams in 20 years with basically no gap in employment

 

[Iapyi]

Many fans are out-and-out hypocrites. They whine and complain about everything. Many of them think they have to be the gatekeeper to ensuring the pampered athlete is getting everything they need to live a cushy life in FantasyLand and think they have the right to pass judgment on people they have never met.

There are hypocrites saying things like 'he is an asshole' even though they've probably never been in the same room with the man. Many fans are also experts on everything they don't have a bloody clue about.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You hated Scotty Bowman 364 days a year, and on day 365 you won the Cup.

Scotty Bowman won the cup 9 times. He has went to the finals even more times than that. When you win as much as he did, you get way more leniency. It also helps that he started coaching in the 60s, which was over 60 years ago. Society has changed. Players have changed. Tortorella won a cup 17 years ago. He made it to the conference finals eight years ago.

Seems like Tortorella was hated the majority of his time as a coach based on what you are saying.

 

[Chuck Norris Trophy]

Active players are not gonna talk shit, they don't want to seem like whiners.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

If you want to own a home and a decent car, not really. And even then you're basically house poor.

Pretty much need $200K+ to partake in some luxuries.

That’s not exactly true. Your wage can take you as far as you ride the markets. If a person took advantage of the housing crash a dozen years ago, you could afford a nice house and nice car for under 100k.

In today’s sorta post-Covid inflated world, yeah, trying to buy new things is difficult.

 

[OppositeLocK]

That’s not exactly true. Your wage can take you as far as you ride the markets. If a person took advantage of the housing crash a dozen years ago, you could afford a nice house and nice car for under 100k.

In today’s sorta post-Covid inflated world, yeah, trying to buy new things is difficult.

You're absolutely right. The people that started on time are lucky. I'm mainly referring to now. Buying in now is a fool's errand.

 

[golfortennis]

Thanks, I totally forgot about CAD vs USD.

The other part is that here in Canada, teachers are well above average in salary, with golden pension, etc.

Salary Grid for TDSB Elementary Teachers: 2014-2019 - Elementary Teachers of Toronto

Toronto elementary teachers salary table, expired in 2019. Guessing it's a much different story in the US.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

You hated Scotty Bowman 364 days a year, and on day 365 you won the Cup.

Tortorella isn't even in the same universe as Bowman

 

[andora]

So you give them poor marks to proove a point and in turn making it impossible to get into a masters program.

Breaking a person to fix a person is exactly the narrative people like torts work with.



It's stockholm syndrome. It's psyc 101, if you are stuck with a domineering personality you protect your ego by believing you want to be treated like shit.

You're acting as if the alternative to Torts is a soft participation points coach.

There's a whole lot of hard and tough people out there.

There's a big difference between tough love and being tough without love.

He has the blatant personality profile of a malignant narcissist. Just because you fear participation point coaching, it doesn't excuse this guys behaviour.

Guy's ego is too fragile to be someone who can truly adapt to criticism.

If he had a better personality you could believe the toughness pays off but it doesn't, there's a reason he's a franchise hopper.

Torts is a parasite he burns through people and because people buy in they believe the players fail and not him.

How long have you known him? Or is that covered by doctor patient confidentiality

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Uh, do we need some sort of housing and income and college grades forum so this thread can get back on f***ing track?

To me Torts is a decent coach who is overrated. He seems like a coach who can get a crap team to play more responsible hockey, but not so much elevate a very good team to great.

Plus he fairly regularly throws his players under the bus in the media. I think the biggest myth is that he intentionally draws attention to himself to take focus off his players. But he does it even when the team is playing well. The reality is the guy is an egomaniac. And to stand out as having a huge ego among NHL coaches, you must be pretty extreme.

 

[Macbanan]

We can look at The Athletic's anonymous player poll taken two years ago:

That doesn't answer the question of whether they like him but on average they don't want to play for him.

 

[Monsieur Miz]

We can look at The Athletic's anonymous player poll taken two years ago:

That doesn't answer the question of whether they like him but on average they don't want to play for him.

I like how Gallant is at 23% but he can't make it back in the League somehow.

 

[BCNate]

From a Canucks POV. When he was coaching here, he didn't even live in Canada, and had his assistants run most practices, he stayed home. Then he insisted that even guys like the Sedins kill penalties and block shots. Then got suspended for trying to fight the Flames Coach.

Pretty hard guy to want to play for.

 

[Negan4Coach]

Is it due to the press conferences? Do people think that's how he's actually like to his players? I encourage everyone to read the deep dive from the Athletic article with anonymous Blue Jackets interviewed, they all like Torts, just felt it was time for a change. There was a lot more animosity towards the current GM. I think h'es a really good coach (not just his Cup, also his continued success) and think he'd be a good add for any team.

I mean there are probably a lot of reasons why some players don't like him, but I don't see why his behavior at press conferences would be it. If anything you think the players would be all like "HAHAHA yeah, give 'em hell Torts" when he breaks their balls. Plus it takes the heat off of them in the press.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I'm amused at how many people immediately think "asshole boss = good boss", if you're a hardass with a purpose that's one thing, but when you just start being an asshole for the sake of being so, it becomes more about your ego and temperment than anything in search of a greater purpose. I'm not saying Torts is clueless when it comes to tactics and the like, but too often it seems like he crosses into the second line which is why so many have an issue with him.