Why is Mike Babcock being made the scapegoat for the Maple Leaf's problems?

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82Ninety42011

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Jul 2, 2011
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Easier to can a coach then trade a team. Babcock is a good coach but he's lost this room and it's time to go. This team is not built for how he likes his players anyway. Either change many players or find a coach that can work with the players they have but something needs to be done pronto in Toronto !
 
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Blowfish

Count down ...
Jan 13, 2005
22,760
14,716
Southwestern Ontario
The issues...

1. Shanahan for replacing Lou with Harry Potter
2. Harry Potter
3. A bunch of $11 million dollar immature arrogant players
4. A $6 million arrogant head coach
5. 30 NHL team players and coaches wanting to crush 1, 2, 3, and 4 above

It's that simple.

The leafs face playoff hockey night in night out.
 

Paradise Circus

Registered User
May 27, 2010
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The issues...

1. Shanahan for replacing Lou with Harry Potter
2. Harry Potter
3. A bunch of $11 million dollar immature arrogant players
4. A $6 million arrogant head coach
5. 30 NHL team players and coaches wanting to crush 1, 2, 3, and 4 above

It's that simple.

The leafs face playoff hockey night in night out.

you do not need to play playoff hockey to beat Harry potter and his arrogant pals.
 

biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
Wonder what that does for locker room cohesion if certain players support Babcock and certain players want him gone.

Who knows if Rielly and Tavares actually support Babcock vs simply doing what they think they are obligated to do. Rielly, Barrie, Tavares (pre- and post-injury) and Marner (pre-injury) have all played at a level about 10% of what was expected of them this season. Matthews, Nylander and Freddie are the only reason Babs wasn't fired weeks ago.
 

The Winter Soldier

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Apr 4, 2011
70,803
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These are coaching issues. When the GM gives you Tyson Barrie and as a coach you turn him into a guy on pace for 19 points, you aren't getting the best out of your talent.
The GM may have added players that look better on paper. But being a good GM is also recognizing a teak needs chemistry. Dubas got rid of character guys that loved being Leafs. Martin, Komarov, Hainsey, Brown, Kadri, Bozak, JVR, Gardiner and Marleau (whom the Leafs 2 biggest stars loved). All had a stake on being a Leaf. All had character. All made the Leafs feel like a sense of community.

You just don't replace this by flipping and trading hockey cards as Dubas seems to think what a GM does. A good GM will recognize camaraderie amongst players. I can't help but think there are players on the team that are not as invested as in the players in the past that used to be with the Leafs. It seems this leafs team are more in it for themselves than for the team, there is no closeness, no team feeling, no pack mentality. This is what Kristine Shilton said in her interview yesterday. I don't disagree. And Babcock is not at fault for this. Dubas is, he removed a lot of character from that room over 2 years of his tenure.
 
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Hatrix

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Oct 7, 2017
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Because in a fishbowl market that doesn't understand that a roster that top heavy with offensive players is the problem, someone has to take the blame...
 
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Pelle31

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Apr 3, 2003
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I find it funny that after years of leaf fans self-proclaiming them the “big 4”, leaf fans are now calling Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares, “the overpaid 4”. It has been catching on around these boards and throughout the media as well.

Having 4 players (these 4 in particular) eat up 50% of the entire salary cap is a fireable offence that is not on Mike Babcock
It's typical Toronto media and fanbase, before the season started the majority of Leafs fans and media stated they were a Stanley Cup contender and now because they're playing like shit the world is going to end, get rid of the coach. The Leafs do have a good team, just right now things aren't going well. The good news is they have lots of time to straighten it out. Both Babcock and Dubas are to blame, Babcock has to change his coaching a little bit to get the best use out of his players. As for Dubas, fans knew that he needed to improve the defense yet he didn't. He needed to get a quality backup to spare Andersen more this season but he didn't. If Babcock gets fired then the next guy on the chopping block will be Dubas. Finally, Dubas may have no other choice but to trade one of the fab 4 to get help, mostly that will be Nylander.
 

Dondini

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Apr 28, 2010
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There is zero chance that the Leafs' could have got Matthews for 10 (Eichel got 10 two years prior and Matthews had a ridiculously better ELC than Eichel) and probably no chance they could have got Marner for 9 either.

The Leafs' had no leverage with Matthews (who hates Babcock and who would have signed an OS - Bettman's wet dream would be Matthews going to Arizona as the first home grown star from the state and the team had been acquired by a new billionaire owner months before Matthews would have become an RFA) and not a ton of leverage with Marner (who had some long-standing grievances - some very legit, and some not so - against the Leafs' management and coach - Marner was refused the schedule B bonuses that every player drafted in his position gets, and Marner, like Nylander, was often bumped down the lineup - including to the fourth line whenever he did anything that displeased Babcock, while veteran players could play terrible for weeks at a time without facing any consequences).

The Leafs' overpayments and contract problems are actually a good cautionary tale of what happens when you draft high end talent and then are pricks to that high end talent during their ELCs. This was something I talked about frequently over the last two summers and was a major reason why I believe the Leafs moved from Lou to Dubas when they did - in the hope that it would reduce the animosity from the camps of all three young players towards Lou and the Leafs' organization. I think that if the Leafs' had fired Babcock would have been able to get Matthews for a better deal than they did (there was still more than 4 years on Babcock's contract when Matthews signed - if you think Matthews was going to give the Leafs' a discount to play the rest of the best years of his career for a coach he hates I think you live in a fantasy land - although at the time much of the fanbase was still denying that the obvious animosity even existed), but Marner's camp was out for blood - and they made clear that the Leafs' were going to pay for his past mistreatment including compensation for those denied schedule B bonuses.


You make all very good points and I would agree that you are right. I guess I’m just a hockey only guy and just didn’t think Matthews did enough to warrant 11.6 per. But I hear what you are saying foresure.
 

OldCraig71

Registered User
Feb 2, 2009
34,819
53,809
No one cares
The issues...

1. Shanahan for replacing Lou with Harry Potter
2. Harry Potter
3. A bunch of $11 million dollar immature arrogant players
4. A $6 million arrogant head coach
5. 30 NHL team players and coaches wanting to crush 1, 2, 3, and 4 above

It's that simple.

The leafs face playoff hockey night in night out.
Hands down, this is the best post I have read all day!
 

Srsly

Registered User
Feb 8, 2011
2,485
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Upland
It’s interesting seeing the generational divide when it comes to Babcock and Dubas. Critics. Overall it seems as though most Dubas detractors are over the age of 40 and view his lack of experience and his soft handed player first mentality as an issue. They also view his strategy of signing skill over old fashioned grit as the root of our problems.

Meanwhile a lot of Babcock’s detractors see him as a dinosaur with outdated coaching methodologies that don’t gel with the players Dubas has signed.

Both sides have some valid points but honestly I’d rather see Babcock go and see Dubas actually make his mark on the team with his own coaching staff that share his viewpoint before dismissing the team he’s built.
 

Commander Clueless

Hiya, hiya. Pleased to meetcha.
Sep 10, 2008
15,237
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Probably because he's one of the few moves the cap-strapped Leafs could make that might actually shake things up without dropping a nuke on the team while the players' values are likely at an all time low.
 
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McDavidCrushedLarkin

Registered User
Jun 12, 2016
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The issues...

1. Shanahan for replacing Lou with Harry Potter
2. Harry Potter
3. A bunch of $11 million dollar immature arrogant players
4. A $6 million arrogant head coach
5. 30 NHL team players and coaches wanting to crush 1, 2, 3, and 4 above

It's that simple.

The leafs face playoff hockey night in night out.
:clap:
 

TooManyHumans

Registered User
May 4, 2018
2,360
3,351
The leafs face playoff hockey night in night out.

I'm not sure I buy that. I don't think the rest of the league is as wrapped up in the Leafs as the Toronto media might make people think. They are just another .500 team right now.
 

GirardSpinorama

Registered User
Aug 20, 2004
21,042
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It’s interesting seeing the generational divide when it comes to Babcock and Dubas. Critics. Overall it seems as though most Dubas detractors are over the age of 40 and view his lack of experience and his soft handed player first mentality as an issue. They also view his strategy of signing skill over old fashioned grit as the root of our problems.

Meanwhile a lot of Babcock’s detractors see him as a dinosaur with outdated coaching methodologies that don’t gel with the players Dubas has signed.

Both sides have some valid points but honestly I’d rather see Babcock go and see Dubas actually make his mark on the team with his own coaching staff that share his viewpoint before dismissing the team he’s built.

Actually a lot of fans on this forum would not be over the age of 40. His "soft handed" mentality is not an issue for me. I also greatly admire his progressive views.

He IS NOT an applied stats PHD or quant genius, more of a MBA consultant type, who can make himself look great in an interview. I've viewed several of his analytics presentation and thats the conclusion I've come to.
 
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GoBuds14

Registered User
Dec 15, 2015
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The leafs offense is really good, and their defense is really bad. Isn't that expected from how their roster is built.

Look how talented their forward core is. Look how un-talented their defensive core is.
Reilly, Muzzin, Dermott, and Barrie is untalented? Reilly Muzzin and Barrie have all had multiple years of individual success. Reilly was a clear cut #1 D last year. Barrie has been a top pairing D the last few years. Muzzin is a proven defender. Dermott is solid and has been ascending since his rookie season. Before the season started, this appeared to be a solid, but not elite group. Each one of these guys are playing the worst hockey theyve played in years, its perplexing and they're capable of much, much more. That being said, the Leafs top 4 D leans heavily towards the offensive side of hockey, they don't have a blend of defensively responsible guys to go with their skill guys. Un-talented? I don't think so at all. I'd say as a unit, they're flawed.
 
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biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
You make all very good points and I would agree that you are right. I guess I’m just a hockey only guy and just didn’t think Matthews did enough to warrant 11.6 per. But I hear what you are saying foresure.

I don't think that Matthews did enough to warrant 11.6 either - and definitely not if it is only for 5 years. Nor do I think the Leafs felt that. But I do think they were fairly certain that an OS was coming for Matthews for that amount or more and that he would sign it.
 
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FMichael

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
5,033
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Wisconsin
It’s interesting seeing the generational divide when it comes to Babcock and Dubas. Critics. Overall it seems as though most Dubas detractors are over the age of 40 and view his lack of experience and his soft handed player first mentality as an issue. They also view his strategy of signing skill over old fashioned grit as the root of our problems.

Meanwhile a lot of Babcock’s detractors see him as a dinosaur with outdated coaching methodologies that don’t gel with the players Dubas has signed.

Both sides have some valid points but honestly I’d rather see Babcock go and see Dubas actually make his mark on the team with his own coaching staff that share his viewpoint before dismissing the team he’s built.
The Leafs look as though they need to take advantage of their skill, and speed by playing run, and gun hockey...It may turn things around, and get them into the playoffs - however I still don’t believe it would get them past the 1st round.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,515
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Who knows if Rielly and Tavares actually support Babcock vs simply doing what they think they are obligated to do. Rielly, Barrie, Tavares (pre- and post-injury) and Marner (pre-injury) have all played at a level about 10% of what was expected of them this season. Matthews, Nylander and Freddie are the only reason Babs wasn't fired weeks ago.

If the team were all on board with getting the coach fired, I just don't see the benefit in some of them defending him or whatever you want to call it. Otherwise, it could very well save his job. If he's got the support of key players (even if it's only public support), it could prevent management from pulling the trigger.

With Tavares in particular, it could be he actually does support Babcock. He's had success under Babcock at the Olympics, and he's been made the team's captain under Babcock. He might actually feel like Babcock's not the issue. If that is the case, that could be a reason for a bit of a divide in the locker room between the pro and anti Babcock camps.
 
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