Why is hockey the only sport not to produce a GOAT-calibre player in the last decade or so?

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I doubt you ever actually saw him play if you think LeBron is in a far different category. Bird is a top 6-8 player probably fairly easy.

He's also one of the most deadly clutch players ever.

Top 6-8 fairly easy? Lol not really.

LeBron, Jordan, wilt, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq. That took 2 seconds, there are more too. Bird probably isn't top 10.

 

[Soundwave]

Compete against who LOL. Jordan's competition in every finals was garbage, especially compared to what LeBron has had to face. The deck was always stacked in Jordan's favour, his team won 55 games without him ffs. He had the best coach ever and 2 HOFers in Pippen and Rodman playing against teams who at the most had 2 (Stockton/Malone), but usually 1 (Barkley, Payton, Clyde). Lakers were way past their prime when they played. Compare the crap Jordan faced to the teams LeBron has faced, other than the mavs.

Spurs 07: 3 HOFers in their prime vs 1 LeBron

Okc 12: 2 HOFers in their prime plus another future one in Harden vs 3 for LeBron

spurs 13/14: 4 HOFers vs 3 for LeBron (Duncan and Manu were past their prime but so was Wade)

warriors 15: 3 HOFers vs 1 LeBron

Warriors 16: 3 HOFers vs 2 for LeBron, 3 if you wanna include Love

Warriors 17/18: 4 HOFers vs 2 for LeBron

For all this "super team" bs people like you love to spit out, LeBron has been at an advantage in literally 1 finals (11), a disadvantage in 5 (07, 15-18) and 50/50 in 3 (12-14). Where as Jordan had the more stacked team in every finals he appeared in.

LeBron lost to the likes of Duncan who was well into his mid-30s and past his prime.

Unlike LeBron Jordan also occasionally had to actually play half decent teams in the East en route to the Finals like the Magic, Knicks, Pacers, etc.

He's a great player (LeBron). He's just not on Jordan's level, if he was he'd have eaten those Spurs teams alive after the first Finals, Duncan was past his prime, and ripped corny ass Jason Terry a new one in the Finals.

Lakers were "way past their prime" ... people forget Magic was only like 2-3 years older than Jordan, lol and Worthy was like 1 year older. The Bulls were actually the older team in that Finals.

 

[Soundwave]

Top 6-8 fairly easy? Lol not really.

LeBron, Jordan, wilt, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq. That took 2 seconds, there are more too. Bird probably isn't top 10.

Bird was a better player than Magic, you would know that if you actually watched basketball at that time.

 

[ElLeetch]

because the CBA neuters individual talent

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

Looks like a hockey thread, secretly a Jordan-James barbershop debate.

For the record, I actually do believe Crosby, Ovechkin and McDavid would have absolutely destroyed 80s hockey, but alas the sport is just too different now.

 

[saska sault]

I think you're really asking why hockey hasn't produced a conversation around whether its current top players are actually the GOATs, or whatever. That's a media question, with the very obvious conclusion that its hype sphere is contained.

Most of the MLB players with the highest batting averages are dead. Football is a monstrous mess and it's hard to separate a great player from a great team (or scheme). There are numerous NBA players who have won more championships than Lebron, Kobe, or MJ....and while current players might have more impressive offensive numbers, basketball has shifted towards increased offense rather than away from it, as hockey has. Hell, call me when the 1.5-goal line has been created.

Crosby might be the best hockey player to ever live. He might actually be better than Gretzky, but the way the game is played today won't tell you that. Likewise, Mike Trout might be better than Ty Cobb, but short of reanimating one to play today or sending the other back in time, you'll never know.

It's all a construct.

EDIT: Now, an addendum to that is this: Gretzky, as mentioned above, is a massive barrier. He really might be the greatest team-sport athlete to ever live, and if you dropped him in the game today he'd put up terrific numbers still. But he wouldn't be scoring 200 points, we all know that.

Is Mike Trout better at baseball than Gretzky was at hockey?

 

[Aladyyn]

That Miami era is really underwhelming too ... only 2 championships .... Kobe won as many with Pau Gasol.

Gasol was better than any of LeBron's teammates. Until this next season starts, of course.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

He's a great player, I have him no.3 or no.4 probably all-time after Jordan, Kareem, and Wilt right now. He is actually fairly similar to Crosby, 3 titles for both, similar individual accolades. If he wants to overtake one of the top 3, IMO he needs a 4th title at least, 3 is on the low side when even guys like Kobe have 5.

In hockey individual players don't get hyped up as much as basketball. But if Crosby was a basketball player, he'd basically be LeBron, that's just not good enough in hockey to make you GOAT.

I'm a huge Crosby fan and think he has gotten the very most out of his natural athletic ability, but he isn't Lebron. Lebron is possibly the greatest athlete to ever walk this earth and when you combine that with an ability to process the game of basketball better than all but a handful of players ever you get the GOAT.

 

[Maestro84]

I thought so too for the longest time, and then Brady just kept winning Superbowls. Sure NE was better than Indianapolis, but its not like they had the best D in the league or a great RB. Brady is by far the reason they keep winning.... If anything Manning was the one who was gifted a SB in Denver. He was awful.

Super Bowls are a team achievement and NE has always put a great team around brady while having Belichek as the coach is a luxury any player would love to have.

Manning has Brady beat in completed passes, touchdowns, yards, percentage of completed passes, and yards per game.

In terms of accolades, Manning beats him in MVPs, Bert Bells, Pro Bowl MVPs, Offensive Player of the Years, times leading the league in passing rates and touchdowns and has been selected to 7 first teams and 10 all-pro teams compared to just 3 and 5 from Brady, respectively.

From a record standpoint, Manning holds the all-time record for career touchdowns, touchdowns in one season, passing yards in a season, game winning drives, career comebacks, touchdowns in one game and for accolades like all-pro selections and league MVPs.

 

[Maestro84]

Compete against who LOL. Jordan's competition in every finals was garbage, especially compared to what LeBron has had to face. The deck was always stacked in Jordan's favour, his team won 55 games without him ffs. He had the best coach ever and 2 HOFers in Pippen and Rodman playing against teams who at the most had 2 (Stockton/Malone), but usually 1 (Barkley, Payton, Clyde). Lakers were way past their prime when they played. Compare the crap Jordan faced to the teams LeBron has faced, other than the mavs.

Spurs 07: 3 HOFers in their prime vs 1 LeBron

Okc 12: 2 HOFers in their prime plus another future one in Harden vs 3 for LeBron

spurs 13/14: 4 HOFers vs 3 for LeBron (Duncan and Manu were past their prime but so was Wade)

warriors 15: 3 HOFers vs 1 LeBron

Warriors 16: 3 HOFers vs 2 for LeBron, 3 if you wanna include Love

Warriors 17/18: 4 HOFers vs 2 for LeBron

For all this "super team" bs people like you love to spit out, LeBron has been at an advantage in literally 1 finals (11), a disadvantage in 5 (07, 15-18) and 50/50 in 3 (12-14). Where as Jordan had the more stacked team in every finals he appeared in.

He had the advantage in 2012 as well. The big 3 were all in their primes while every key player on OKC was like 22/23 years old. The only player that was already elite was KD. Russ and Harden weren't even half the players they ended up becoming today, and Ibaka's offensive game wasn't as great then either, although his defense was already strongly developed.

 

[Maestro84]

MJ had as flawless of a career as it gets. He only played 11 full seasons in his prime with Chicago and managed to accomplish more than LeBron in 16 years and counting.

 

[Maestro84]

Comparing 3 pointers in basketball and goals in hockey makes no ssense. In basketball you get 2s as well. In hockey goals is the only commodity

Regardless, Ovie is not close to being the GOAT debate even if he scores more goals then Gretzky and neither is anyone since Mario.

 

[boredmale]

If you ignore hockey from about 1966 - 2000, there has always been a certain level of parity. Nothing Gordy Howe did for instance stood head and shoulders above other players statistically

 

[MikeK]

Other sports and the way they are played allow for more individual play and talent to rise above. Hockey does not. It's too fast, not as much room to maneuver, and the way the game is officiated so inconstantly seriously cripples talent to flourish. It's all about parity. The NHL is one big participation award. Rather than reward skill and talent it tries it's best to be as even keeled as possible.

 

[MadLuke]

If you ignore hockey from about 1966 - 2000, there has always been a certain level of parity. Nothing Gordy Howe did for instance stood head and shoulders above other players statistically

Did anyone outside Gretzky stood out more than Howe stats wise (and Orr if we limit among defenseman)

1950-51 to 53-54

Howe: 348 pts
Lindsay: 261 pts
Richard : 238 pts

Arguably the player that separated himself from the pack the most outside Gretzky before Lemieux got really good.

In that 52-53 season:

1.	Gordie Howe* • DET	95
2.	Ted Lindsay* • DET	71
3.	Maurice Richard* • MTL	61
4.	Alex Delvecchio* • DET	59

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

33.8% above second place and more than 50% above any non team mate.

 

[The Beyonder]

Because goats of old pretty much played in a different league. Goaltending, coaching and parity has gone up. No one will ever touch gretzky's record. Its like someone put on cheat modes in a video game. Thats why. Mcdavid, Crosby and ovi would be getting 200+ points if you dumped them in the 80s.

 

[MadLuke]

Because goats of old pretty much played in a different league. Goaltending, coaching and parity has gone up. No one will ever touch gretzky's record. Its like someone put on cheat modes in a video game. Thats why. Mcdavid, Crosby and ovi would be getting 200+ points if you dumped them in the 80s.

You really do not need to score 200+ pts to compete with goat status with Grezkty, like Greztky didn't need to score 2 goal a game to compete with Joe Malone and Patrick Roy didn't had to beat Sawchuck goal against average to compete with him, influential people for the most part can adjust for the era.

That said some year's of Gretzky peak wasn't that different in high end scoring vs now if you remove him:

Points

1.	Wayne Gretzky* • EDM	205
2.	Paul Coffey* • EDM	126
3.	Michel Goulet* • QUE	122
4.	Peter Stastny* • QUE	119
5.	Mike Bossy* • NYI	118

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1.	Nikita Kucherov • TBL	128
2.	Connor McDavid • EDM	116
3.	Patrick Kane • CHI	110
4.	Leon Draisaitl • EDM	105
5.	Sidney Crosby • PIT	100
	Brad Marchand • BOS	100

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Ducks in a row]

Because goats of old pretty much played in a different league. Goaltending, coaching and parity has gone up. No one will ever touch gretzky's record. Its like someone put on cheat modes in a video game. Thats why. Mcdavid, Crosby and ovi would be getting 200+ points if you dumped them in the 80s.

Q: How many people in the 80's scored 200 points?
A: 1 and that was Wayne Gretzky NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Points | Hockey-Reference.com

Crosby,McDavid and Ovechkin would not be getting 200 points in the 80's while having to use 80's equipment playing under 80's rules. None of them are as good a Super Mario and he never scored 200 points in a season during the 80's so if Super Mario couldn't no one could other then The Great One.

 

[MikeK]

Q: How many people in the 80's scored 200 points?
A: 1 and that was Wayne Gretzky NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Points | Hockey-Reference.com

Crosby,McDavid and Ovechkin would not be getting 200 points in the 80's while having to use 80's equipment playing under 80's rules. None of them are as good a Super Mario and he never scored 200 points in a season during the 80's so if Super Mario couldn't no one could other then The Great One.

Ovechkin is the only one of those 3 that may have had a chance of surviving in the 80s. The other two of Crosby and McDavid would have been helped off the ice in body bags.

 

[kgboomer]

Ovechkin is the only one of those 3 that may have had a chance of surviving in the 80s. The other two of Crosby and McDavid would have been helped off the ice in body bags.

Yeah right.... give Semenko, McClelland and McSorley to those guys with no instigator penalty like it was in those years and they would have been just fine. Anyone touching Gretzky, even just a little bit, were getting their brain smashed by those goons when he was making those 200 pts season. Semenko was even playing on Gretzky's line a lot just to make sure if anyone was not getting the message. Crosby and McDavid would never have been abused like they are and would have been free to do whatever they damn well pleased.

Many of the old fans will never forgive Bettman for getting the instigator rule in the NHL and almost killed fighting. The stars were protected back then.

 

[psycat]

Because the coaching and equipment in hockey have changed dramatically while they haven’t in other sports? And because teams now roll four lines, have dedicated shutdown matchups, etc? Guys like McDavid and Crosby are probably just about as good as anyone ever has been but no one is ever going to score 200 points ever again and that’s not because of the talent, it’s because of the evolution of the sport. Look at the goaltending position. Look at collapsing, shot blocking defenses. Look at the quality and importance of good depth players vs 30 years ago. If the only way we have of measuring a players greatness is their statistical accolades, then there will never be a GOAT player again. The game has changed.

Twilight-Lemieux after 3 years of retirement demolished the league just a couple of years before Crosby entered it.
If you actually saw Lemieux play you would know Crosby is just not close to as dominating of a player.

 

[psycat]

OK now tell me who Federer won those slams against? It's easy to stack them up when the competition is Roddick and safin lol. As soon as Nadal showed up he started spanking prime Federer all around the world. Remember Federer crying like a baby after losing Australia 09? Because he knew he couldn't beat Nadal. Nadal has beat Federer on every surface at a GS, Federer hasn't. Their H2H, Nadal's gold medal and the fact that Nadal actually had to play against real competition is worth more than some slams won against random no names.

Nadal is a doped up freak though, Fuentes client. Federer might also dope of course but the former is certain.

 

[Leafsdude7]

Has anyone pointed out that hockey has become a lot more team-focused than most other leagues, therefore making individual success less important?

Pair that with the fact that the most individualistic position in hockey (goalie) has arguably been about as weak as ever since the late-90s as far as producing goalies that put up consistent high-calibre results every season, and you're looking at very little chance at someone who breaks through the pack as a legitimate GOAT.

 

[Weztex]

If you ignore hockey from about 1966 - 2000, there has always been a certain level of parity. Nothing Gordy Howe did for instance stood head and shoulders above other players statistically

Statistically, Howe probably had the second highest offensive peak after Gretzky (given that Lemieux rarely played full seasons).

1950-51

1.	Gordie Howe* • DET	86
2.	Maurice Richard* • MTL	66
3.	Max Bentley* • TOR	62
4.	Sid Abel* • DET	61
	Ted Kennedy* • TOR	61
	Milt Schmidt* • BOS	61

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1951-52

1.	Gordie Howe* • DET	86
2.	Ted Lindsay* • DET	69
3.	Elmer Lach* • MTL	65
4.	Don Raleigh • NYR	61
5.	Sid Smith • TOR	57

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1952-53

1.	Gordie Howe* • DET	95
2.	Ted Lindsay* • DET	71
3.	Maurice Richard* • MTL	61
4.	Alex Delvecchio* • DET	59
	Wally Hergesheimer • NYR	59

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[JasonRoseEh]

In Ovechkin and Crosby they have but the NHL is too mired in nostalgia and inflated stats by era to call it like it is. They're both all time consensus top 10 players RIGHT NOW, all that's left to be decided is where they end up.