Why is hockey the only sport not to produce a GOAT-calibre player in the last decade or so?

holy

2023-2024 Cup CHamps
May 22, 2017
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Damn, I honestly never saw Gretzky play, nor do I care much about the history of the sport because it's not what I really find enjoyable about sports, but why was Gretzky so much better than the competition?

Was he just extremely lucky? Does hockey involve more of an aspect of luck than other sports? Like you can't just practice your way to become that great, whereas in basketball you can? Or is it that injuries are bound to happen in such a brutal sport and the people that could've been close run into injury problems most of the time?

Iunno, just comparing to basketball cause I saw Kobe made some comments about Shaq that were juicy as hell and it made me kinda sad that the legends of hockey are so irrelevant because one guy eclipsed everyone so badly in terms of points. Add to that that Wayne Gretzky looks like a wax figure of himself and I start to believe the guy never even existed.

Anyways, sorry for the long winded post, I smoked a ****load of weed and now this is where my mind is at.
 

Randyne

Registered User
May 20, 2012
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I don't see that line anywhere in the post I quoted. It starts with "50 G gaps between 1st and 2nd place" then is followed by a bunch of 50s. Even with what you just provided, I still have no idea what you're saying. I am really thick, I'm sincerely trying to understand what you're saying.
Just entire gap measured by 50 goals seasons. That's all.
 

robertmac43

Forever 43!
Mar 31, 2015
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The nature of hockey just makes it harder to separate yourself from your peers. Also the lower end talent in the NHL is much better than it used to be making it more competitive of a league, just harder to separate oneself now a days.
 
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kingpest19

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Sep 21, 2004
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Unpopular opinion.

MMA had Fedor.
Boxing had Mayweather
Tennis had Federer and Williams
Golf had Tiger
Cycling had Armstrong
Running had Bolt

All one person sports.

Baseball has its pitchers, football has its quarterbacks.

Basketball is an exception, it is still a team sport but it's stars wins the games.

Hockey will never have the superstars of the other sports unless it's in net. No matter how unworldly McDavid becomes, he's only on the ice for half a game.
Cycling is a team sport and Armstrong was nowhere near Merckx as a rider.
 

SotasicA

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Aug 25, 2014
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Unpopular opinion.

MMA had Fedor.
Boxing had Mayweather
Tennis had Federer and Williams
Golf had Tiger
Cycling had Armstrong
Running had Bolt

All one person sports.

Baseball has its pitchers, football has its quarterbacks.

Basketball is an exception, it is still a team sport but it's stars wins the games.

Hockey will never have the superstars of the other sports unless it's in net. No matter how unworldly McDavid becomes, he's only on the ice for half a game.
Hockey in essence really is two goalies duking it out for sixty minutes, with chaotically bouncing rubber, men and bodily fluids in between the two. A slightly gay sounding duel with random elements dividing the two contestants.

A goalie gets the win or the loss, for the team.
 

Luigi Lemieux

Registered User
Sep 26, 2003
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Gretzky's career is impossible to reach in modern NHL. The league has evolved differently than the other sports. Jagr, Sid, Geno, OV, McDavid would have put up 150-200 point seasons in the 1980's too.

But you can make an argument that OV may go down as the best goal scorer in history. If Price didn't waste his career in Montreal he could have challenged Brodeur's career under the right circumstance.
Crosby, while barely half the player than Mario was, has achieved far more than Mario ever has.
Not sure what you mean. Yes he has 1 more cup but Lemieux has 6 art rosses and 3 harts, and he's an even bigger what-if than Crosby. 10+ art rosses were easily in his reach if he stayed healthy.
 

Scrantonicity 2

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Mar 7, 2016
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Ovechkin is definitely in GOAT territory for conversations of best all-time goal scorers. I mean you have Gretzky, Bossy, and Ovechkin as your top 3 probably. I mean when all is said and done Ovechkin could wind up 2nd all time in goals and you don’t think that’s GOAT territory?

I think Ovechkin already is the greatest goal scorer of all time but I get the point you're making and agree with it.
 

DrewGl

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Jul 28, 2018
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I think you can argue that Ovi/Crosby are GOAT type players given their respective time periods for what they do. At least at the moment. I guess there can only be one GOAT and that can always be debated in any sport.
 

Mc5RingsAndABeer

5-14-6-1
May 25, 2011
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As much as Lebron is not close to being the GOAT. You put Trout out there, Jesus.
LeBron is arguably the GOAT. People who prefer scoring and championships will take MJ. People who prefer assists, rebounds, advanced stats, and career stats will take LeBron. Remember, Jordan couldn't even win a playoff series until Pippen got there.
 

Leksand

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Oct 30, 2013
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Could be a bit random, but maybe not, it is not that surprising so many of the all time great were born between 1950 and 1966 in Canada:

c-g01-eng.gif


Hockey did rely a lot on Canada and Soviet block talent, with natality going down, cost and complexity of hockey access going up, talent pool in Canada probably went down quite a bit, all the Soviet block talent got hit pretty bad in the late 80s early 90s has well (Russian, Czech, etc...), Gretzky and Messier were born in 1961 almost at the peak of that graph, Bourque in 1960 at the peak, Yzerman, Lemieux and Roy in 1965 just before the drop, Orr in 1948 in the immediate post WW2 boom, Howe just before the recession drop.

While the talent pool in sport like soccer probably only went up and up in comparison.

Offense and star player protection often went up in some other league, maybe it help create separation for them.

Thank you for this!

Some basic analysis. Maybe would turn out to be right on or not that relevant, but boy is it refreshing to see some analysis, instead of the endless “straight seasons of this or that”, even worse “on pace to blah blah” etc etc arguments.

Won’t go anywhere though...
 

Mc5RingsAndABeer

5-14-6-1
May 25, 2011
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Mcdavid could have put up insane numbers if he ended up on a really good team the last 4 years. We are talking 150-160 points. His career is pretty much derailed by the pathetic Edmonton Oilers organization.
How would he put up more points? He's playing with a 50 goal scorer and 100 point player in Draisaitl. He would face the toughest competition regardless of what team he's on.
 

Soundwave

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Mar 1, 2007
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LeBron is arguably the GOAT. People who prefer scoring and championships will take MJ. People who prefer assists, rebounds, advanced stats, and career stats will take LeBron. Remember, Jordan couldn't even win a playoff series until Pippen got there.

3 titles doesn't make you the GOAT IMO. Jordan had good assist and rebounding numbers for a shooting guard also and is a better scorer AND defender.

It's like saying you prefer Yzerman over Gretzky because Yzerman is arguably a more "all-around" player.

Saying Jordan couldn't win without Pippen is like blaming McDavid for not carrying the Oilers to the Finals already. Kinda tough when you have not a lot of help.
 

Connor McConnor

Registered User
Nov 22, 2017
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Pure skill alone, McDavid is the best player we've seen since Lemieux in my honest opinion. He could challenge for GOAT status on skill alone.

The problem is, in order to be considered an all time great you need to win and hockey is the hardest sport to win in (especially in the Modern day).

With all that said. This whole thread to me is just random. Who cares? What is 10 years in the history of Sports?
 

weastern bias

worst team in the league
Feb 3, 2012
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LeBron is arguably the GOAT. People who prefer scoring and championships will take MJ. People who prefer assists, rebounds, advanced stats, and career stats will take LeBron. Remember, Jordan couldn't even win a playoff series until Pippen got there.

Jordan also never missed the playoffs until he was 38 years old on a terrible Washington team, Lebron missed the playoffs in his first 2 seasons and just missed again this year while purportedly still in his prime (he's not anymore, but many of his supporters will point to his gaudy stats to say he still is)
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
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Jordan also never missed the playoffs until he was 38 years old on a terrible Washington team, Lebron missed the playoffs in his first 2 seasons

Situation were significantly different.

When Jordan started in the NBA 16 team made the playoff in a 23 team league (69% of the teams)
When James started 16 team made the playoff in a 29 team league (55% of teams), almost twice as many team missed.

James started at 19 year's old vs 21 for Jordan and has a first overall draft pick got on a considerably worst team.

The Cavalier went from a 17-65 team (.207) to a 35-47 team (.427) with James
The Bulls went from 27-55 (.329) to a 38-44 (.463) team with Jordan arrival in the NBA.
 
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Maestro84

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May 3, 2018
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Ovechkin is the best goal scorer in nhl history. How is that not GOAT....
He's arguably the best goal scorer but he's not in the discussion for best player. If we're putting Ovechkin in the GOAT debate just due to his goal scoring then I guess we can add Steph Curry to the GOAT debate since he's the GOAT shooter
 

Maestro84

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May 3, 2018
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What would you call 12 of his 18 grandslams being the French?

Guy has won one Australian Open. No different than Federer winning one French Open.

There is no doubt that Nadal is the GOAT of Clay Tennis though, I'll give you that. Outside of Clay? He's Murray.
Fed's the GOAT but c'mon now, Nadal's won 6 majors outside clay and won all four majors while Murray only has 3 majors in total....
 

Maestro84

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May 3, 2018
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NHL Gretzky 80/90s
MLB Ruth 1920s!
NBA Jordan 80s/90s
NFL Brady 2000-present

I dont understand why its expected that there would be a new GOAT now
In terms of "winning" it's Brady, but as an individual player, Peyton Manning was better than Brady imo
 

kgboomer

Registered User
Nov 12, 2014
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The list of folks who don't view Brady as GOAT mostly live where you live and are wrong.
There's a very long list a people, including players and ex-players who don't view Brady as GOAT. Most view him as the greatest QB of all time but certainly not greatest player of all time. For lots of people, QBs and kickers as athletic as an overcook spaghetti noodle are considered as specialist, not REAL football player.
 

illpucks

Registered User
May 26, 2011
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There's a very long list a people, including players and ex-players who don't view Brady as GOAT. Most view him as the greatest QB of all time but certainly not greatest player of all time. For lots of people, QBs and kickers as athletic as an overcook spaghetti noodle are considered as specialist, not REAL football player.

Brady still being the NFL's #1 player this late in his career is unprecedented. Was a 42 year old ever the best player in the NHL?
 

3074326

Registered User
Apr 9, 2009
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3 titles doesn't make you the GOAT IMO. Jordan had good assist and rebounding numbers for a shooting guard also and is a better scorer AND defender.

It's like saying you prefer Yzerman over Gretzky because Yzerman is arguably a more "all-around" player.

Saying Jordan couldn't win without Pippen is like blaming McDavid for not carrying the Oilers to the Finals already. Kinda tough when you have not a lot of help.

Did you see some of the teams Lebron took to the finals in Cleveland? The first time he went, the second best scorer on the team was Larry Hughes, with just under 15 ppg. Third best scorer was Drew Gooden with 11 ppg. That was the worst team to ever get to the finals.

Lebron was one of the best defenders in the league until his last couple years. One of his most iconic plays is a block.

Lebron scored 3 less ppg over the course of their careers and averaged more rebounds, assists, shot better from three and had a higher shooting percentage in general.

We saw what Lebron could do when he was surrounded with talent. Just like what MJ did with Pippen/Rodman.

It's funny that I'm saying this because I think MJ is the best player ever. I just think it's a 1a and 1b situation. They both dominated at nearly the same level. Lebron just got to play in Cleveland.
 

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