Why is Gretzky so underrated on HF?

[ManofSteel55]

Gretzky was the golden goose who could fill arenas when he went on the road.
I think that there was a tacit agreement among the other teams not to hit him and take the chance of injuring him.
That and he had the goon Semenko to babysit him which gave him the room/time that he needed.

This is b.s. People tried to hit him. Older players talked about it all the time. They wanted to hit Gretzky, but they couldn't. Players wanted to win games, they weren't going to sit back and not play because their owner wanted them to not hit Gretzky. There was an unwritten rule about cheap shots later in his career, and I could even buy guys not hitting him in pre-season out of respect, but when the games mattered, nobody is laying off a hit just because the owner tells them to. You also can't tell me that Semenko would be enough to get other teams goons to not try to hit him. They just couldn't. They certainly helped to make sure he wasn't cheap shotted, but as a whole, the "nobody tried to hit Gretzky" thing is completely fabricated.

 

[authentic]

Gretzky being uncatchable wasn't entirely speed based. He was quick, but he was often referred to as "slippery" by opponents. They thought they had him lined up, went for a hit, and all of a sudden he wasn't there. It wasn't just the slugs of the 80's who couldn't catch him, it was guys all through the 90's as well, even when he was old and had slowed down, you rarely saw Wayne take a big hit. Yes, today's game is faster, but that doesn't mean that he would all of a sudden be unable to sidestep guys or slip around hits. If anything, he would be better today, there is no clutch and grab today, and guys are getting called for things on star players that they didn't used to get called for. Plus, special teams is more important than ever, and Gretzky is the best powerplay quarterback ever. Teams were afraid to get penalties against him because they scored so often.

Lemieux was. Gretzky was usually better at ES though.

 

[authentic]

This is b.s. People tried to hit him. Older players talked about it all the time. They wanted to hit Gretzky, but they couldn't. Players wanted to win games, they weren't going to sit back and not play because their owner wanted them to not hit Gretzky. There was an unwritten rule about cheap shots later in his career, and I could even buy guys not hitting him in pre-season out of respect, but when the games mattered, nobody is laying off a hit just because the owner tells them to. You also can't tell me that Semenko would be enough to get other teams goons to not try to hit him. They just couldn't. They certainly helped to make sure he wasn't cheap shotted, but as a whole, the "nobody tried to hit Gretzky" thing is completely fabricated.

The odd thing is out of the countless full Gretzky games I've watched, I didn't see a lot of serious attempts at it, even when he was standing still along the boards. You figure there would be many clips available of him dodging hits. Truthfully players didn't hit as often in the 80s as people say though, and he was hit a few times pretty good.

 

[Butch 19]

Lemieux was. Gretzky was usually better at ES though.

LOL - the NHL changed the PP rules of the game because of Gretzky! Did Lemieux make the league change rules?!

Gretzky was better in every situation.

 

[ManofSteel55]

See who has more hall of famers the Oilers, who as I mentioned won the cup without Gretzky, or the Penguins who never could have won the cup without Mario.
lol

Those Penguins were dominant, they still would have been a contender without Mario.
Oilers Hall of Famers - Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Fuhr, Coffey, Anderson
Penguins Hall of Famers - Lemieux, Jagr, Francis, Coffey, Murphy, Recchi, Mullen, Trottier (although he was a shadow of his prime self), plus Kevin Stevens was at star level at that point, and would be in the Hall if he had any longevity at all and didn't have off ice issues. Both had Hall of Fame coaches. Both had amazing depth guys like Tikkanen, Lowe, Huddy for Edmonton, and Tocchet, Barasso and Samuelsson. To suggest that Mario is the lone reason the Penguins won the cup in the early 90's is pretty ridiculous.

 

[authentic]

LOL - the NHL changed the PP rules of the game because of Gretzky! Did Lemieux make the league change rules?!

Gretzky was better in every situation.

The 4 on 4 rules you mean, Lemieux scored more on the powerplay in a season and a much bigger percentage of his career points were on the powerplay, not exactly an LOL worthy opinion.

 

[ManofSteel55]

The odd thing is out of the countless full Gretzky games I've watched, I didn't see a lot of serious attempts at it, even when he was standing still along the boards. You figure there would be many clips available of him dodging hits. Truthfully players didn't hit as often in the 80s as people say though, and he was hit a few times pretty good.

In his early years, he made a few guys look foolish and totally out of position by going for hits. It doesn't take long for pro's to learn, and they learned quickly that if you go to hit Gretzky, you'd better be prepared to look foolish.

 

[Bank Shot]

I'm a Leaf fan and I don't think that's true at all. If anything, he doesn't get his due in Toronto because he's perceived to not have played with the passion of players like Gilmour and Clark and he never "put the team on his back" and led them to playoff success etc.

And yet he was a first ballot Hall of Famer despite a lack of great personal or team success.

You do the math.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

100% this, I remember him and Gretzky but was too young for Orr.

As time goes on people forget, plain and simple.

I also think there's some contrarian thinking going on- people feel smarter holding an unpopular opinion and then arguing their case, and it also gets 'em more attention. It's like claiming the earth is flat.

 

[Gary Nylund]

And yet he was a first ballot Hall of Famer despite a lack of great personal or team success.

You do the math.

Sundin had a lot of personal success. What math?

 

[Metroid]

There are also anti-vexers and flat earthers amungst us...

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

You're right, the word "obliterated" was a bit much, I should have just said that he would have beat Gretzky's records had he maintained his pace. As far as you saying he would have likely fallen short had he stayed healthy, I call BS as I see no basis for this whatsoever.

As far as health goes, I said earlier that I agree, Gretzky's longevity is a point in his favour for sure but peak Lemieux takes a back seat to nobody. I also earlier pointed out Howe's accomplishments some of which surpass what Gretzky was able to and he did in it a much tougher era so there's an argument to be made that Howe>Gretzky, what are your thoughts on that?

As far as the rest of your lengthy post, the fact that EDM won a cup even without Gretzky only goes to support my case - Gretzky's supporting cast was far superior to what Lemieux had. It also sounds like you're trying to give Gretzky himself some of the credit for the cup they won when he was playing for another team? Sorry but that's just ridiculous.

Howe finished top five in scoring for 20 straight years.
Orr recreates the defence position even winning the scoring title.
Mario didn't need a babysitter.
Gretzky was great but Mario was super.

 

[Gary Nylund]

There are also anti-vexers and flat earthers amungst us...

I haven't heard this term myself but it sounds like a good thing.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Howe finished top five in scoring for 20 straight years.
Orr recreates the defence position even winning the scoring title.
Mario didn't need a babysitter.
Greatly was great but Mario was super.

Yeah I think most would agree that these are the top 4 of all-time. Whenever I see lists it's usually Gretzky or Orr at the top and I often think that the other two are underrated. People always point to longevity as the reason for having 99 ahead of 66 but then what about Howe?

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Howe finished top five in scoring for 20 straight years.
Orr recreates the defence position even winning the scoring title.
Mario didn't need a babysitter.
Greatly was great but Mario was super.

Mario was super, but Gretzky was the best ever.

No matter what crappy babysitter narrative you’re trying to run.

Gretzky has more records, personal hardware and team hardware than Lemieux. Gretzky actually has hard evidence.

 

[Draiskull]

Mario pretty much owned the PIT bench it seemed. He was out pretty much every other shift and for extended time.
No one in current NHL could pull that off.. Not even a Dman.

 

[Notsince67]

His competition sucked. Every star player today is better than Gretzky.

If you are a good skater, I challenge you to go out and buy a pair of vintage skates of that era and give them a try. Then picture the difference that equipment makes on a forward (and a goalie for that matter)

 

[PensandCaps]

Mario pretty much owned the PIT bench it seemed. He was out pretty much every other shift and for extended time.
No one in current NHL could pull that off.. Not even a Dman.

Because he didn't go all out

 

[Metroid]

I haven't heard this term myself but it sounds like a good thing.

Oopsie "vaxxer" is guess is the correct spelling

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone seriously argue that he's any less than the greatest hockey player of all time.

Greatest? He was
Most skilled? He was not

 

[Kimota]

You mean until he actually went head to head with Gretzky and nine out of ten disappeared and got his ass whopped? Lemieux lacked the killer instinct and the relentlessness Gretzky had. That was his biggest issue. He never worked anywhere near as hard as Wayne. Talent wise I'd say Mario is the most gifted ever.

Edit. The only way you could ever have a player better than Wayne, is if someone comes along with his competitiveness combined with a Mario talent.

Hey I said Mario was Superman and Wayne was Iron Man; Superman always lacked the killer instinct. But kept winning anyway. You are talking about two guys that won cups anyway so it's moot. They are both good in a different matter.

Furthermore it's not like they went one after another in a best of 7 series in the playoffs where Wayne won. What you don't get is that it doesn't make Mario less great because he didn't have Wayne's compete level. It's just different! I know it's personal for you but still open your mind.

 

[CartographerNo611]

Age and wanting their generation to have the best honestly. YouTube highlights show him making goalies look foolish but rarely show the goalie making the save. I can cherry pick goals against and make Patrick Roy look like an ECHLer if I want to prove a point that fits an agenda.

He was also boring as heck, most of his greatness came from the mind while there were much flashier players.

I think Gretz would thrive in today’s game. Just way less physical and didn’t have 3 monsters draped over a shoulder. Safe to say he would atleast be neck and neck with Kucherov or Kane.

Throw on 80s gear on goalies and have everyone play with wood sticks the game would be completely different.

 

[eviohh26]

Alot of us never seen him play in his prime. There is no good videos to watch. But I asked my dad if Gretzky really is the best player he has ever seen play. His answer was an easy yes.

 

[nbwingsfan]

27 = well out of his prime.

Its been shown over and over again that the best players peak before 27. His best seasons were his early 20s

 

[nbwingsfan]

So the greatest player of all time was out of his prime at 27-28?

Like almost all other elite NHL players? Yep.