Why haven't other goalies replicated Hasek's style

[machpo]

The ceremony and clips of Hasek over the previous couple of days got me thinking about this. First, I should say I don't watch a ton of hockey outside of the Sabres' games - so maybe there is a Hasek-like goalie somewhere in the pros that I haven't run across.

This was a goalie who flat-out dominated for almost a decade in the NHL - we've all seen the awards and superlatives, so I won't repeat them here. My thought process goes along the lines of:

Body: Hasek was certainly super-flexbile and limber, imo more than most. I have to think with modern conditioning and training there are plenty of goalies who can potentially move as well as Hasek.
Mind: By all accounts, Hasek saw the game better than almost any goalie. Really sharp tactician, chess junkie, student of the game. It's impossible to measure, but I think it's not crazy to say that his mental game/hockey vision was extremely rare (Gretzky/Crosby 'generational' rare)

So why no little Haseks?
- Was his superior mental game the difference that allowed him to execute those moves successfully, but makes it a bad bet for the rest of the mortal goaltending world?
- Is it possible to even coach his 'style'?

Would love to hear other people's thoughts on this.

cheers.

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[Myllz]

Not everyone has a slinky for a spine.

 

[Zman5778]

It's impossible to emulate Hasek. He didn't have a style....he reacted instinctively to pucks and where he thought they were going.

That and having what had to be rubber as a spine helped. I've never seen another goalie as flexible as he was.


It's Hasek's combination of instinct and freakish flexibility that isn't likely to be duplicated anytime soon.

 

[Kublakhan]

it was the mask....All mask!!

No but really, both guys above me nailed it..

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

I used to coach a goalie camp every year from 98-04 and after the first 2 sessions of the first year I'd lost track of the number of times I'd heard "I wanna play like Hasek". You don't play like Hasek. Hasek was the ultimate person at anticipating and baiting shooters. He would crowd an area, bait you into a corner and then throw his entire body at you. He was a genius at understanding what, when, and where a shooter was going to do. If you can't play that style at a genius level then you just play the entire game out of position.

That's not why we don't see mini-Haseks. You can't teach instincts and you can't become an NHL goalie these days without some coaching. So off-styles and quirky tenders get coached out of the junior system. It's not just Hasek's style that doesn't get replicated either, he's just a special case where he was a) possibly the greatest tender to slide between the pipes and b) was so unorthodox as to be unmistakable. You look at guys like Mike Richter, Felic Potvin, Mika Kiprusoff, or Vladislav Tretiak, they all played a unique style but none of their styles were as unique as Hasek's. Each one of those other guys you could sweep aside as 'stand up' or 'butterfly' but in truth none of them played the stereotype style. Tretiak could stand on both feet and drop his body to half the height on the net, Potvin stood on the goal line half the game and relied on his quick reflexes, there's plenty of styles that you never see repeated, Hasek's just happen to be more noticeable.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

Coaching probably has a lot to do with it. Older goalies probably didn't have the same type of technical coaching that modern goaltenders have, which lead to many going more on instinct than technique.

It also led to goalies whose instincts were so bad that the scoring explosions of the 80s happened. Which goes to show just how hard it is to be consistently good playing primarily on instinct and athleticism.

 

[sabrebuild]

I used to coach a goalie camp every year from 98-04 and after the first 2 sessions of the first year I'd lost track of the number of times I'd heard "I wanna play like Hasek". You don't play like Hasek. Hasek was the ultimate person at anticipating and baiting shooters. He would crowd an area, bait you into a corner and then throw his entire body at you. He was a genius at understanding what, when, and where a shooter was going to do. If you can't play that style at a genius level then you just play the entire game out of position.

That's not why we don't see mini-Haseks. You can't teach instincts and you can't become an NHL goalie these days without some coaching. So off-styles and quirky tenders get coached out of the junior system. It's not just Hasek's style that doesn't get replicated either, he's just a special case where he was a) possibly the greatest tender to slide between the pipes and b) was so unorthodox as to be unmistakable. You look at guys like Mike Richter, Felic Potvin, Mika Kiprusoff, or Vladislav Tretiak, they all played a unique style but none of their styles were as unique as Hasek's. Each one of those other guys you could sweep aside as 'stand up' or 'butterfly' but in truth none of them played the stereotype style. Tretiak could stand on both feet and drop his body to half the height on the net, Potvin stood on the goal line half the game and relied on his quick reflexes, there's plenty of styles that you never see repeated, Hasek's just happen to be more noticeable.

This. Especially the part about coaching. No coach today would allow a young goalie to emulate most if any of Hasek's style. They would all have panic attacks the first time the young goalie got embarrassed trying to charge out and slide tackle an opposing player on a clean breakaway.

 

[Paxon]

I haven't seen it mentioned, though I only scanned the thread: Hasek had medically abnormal flexibility. As a child he was given physical therapy exercises to strengthen his muscles. Flexibility was a crucial part of his ability to play the way he did effectively. I'm sure there are goalies out there with the flexibility, reflexes, and instincts to emulate his style more than they do, but it's certainly a factor.

With how technical goaltending has become it's hard to imagine a legitimate prospect coming up who'd have been allowed to do much 'freelancing' as it were. I'd say that's the other big factor. Hasek came up into pro (Czechoslovakian) goaltending as a 16 year old in '81-'82 I believe. That was before the butterfly revolution made butterfly the goaltending norm, as Roy came into the NHL a few years later. Though Hasek had a lot of butterfly elements in his game as the years went by, he obviously started from a completely different base of technique than any goaltender today would.

 

[Jim Bob]

The same thing goes for Brodeur's "style".

Heck, even Brodeur's son plays a more modern style!

 

[old kummelweck]

The closest was probably Tim Thomas IMO.

A few reasons I can think of:

1. Goalie coaching at all levels is dominated by coaching butterfly. Every clinic I go to, that's the guy that is there, talking about this style. They discourage athleticism for positioning and technique. For a kid to advance with an acrobatic style, he'd have to defy coaching at every level.

2. Goalie equipment has gotten so big, that you rarely see the type of equipment Dom had i.e. small, flexible pads that allow a lot of movement. So goalies from a young age are deep inside big stiff pads.

3. Goalies are BIG guys that fill a lot of net now and less likely to be little acrobats.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

There was more to Hasek then just his style of play. Watching player interviews they knew going in they were lucky to score 1 maybe 2 against Hasek, he would get in their heads. That gave him an advantage right there. He had nerves of steel. Rarely a bad goal, and reflexes were incredible. On top of that he practiced practiced and practiced and when things didnt go right in practice he practiced again. His style goes beyond just his play.

 

[KennyFnPowers*]

Agreed on Tim Thomas.

Also, this is like asking "Why hasn't anyone else replicated Gretzky's style.."

That's why they go down as great-ones.

 

[Mr Orangeshirt]

Not everyone has a slinky for a spine.

Priceless.

 

[Blitz]

It's difficult to assess why nobody has emulated Dominik Hasek's style of play, but I think it comes down to the fact that ALL of the current goaltenders in the NHL, KHL, AHL etc...HAVE BONES!

Dom is a freak, a normal human body does not bend like that, AND bend back. He is a demi-god.

 

[Jim Bob]

http://www.usahockey.com/news_article/show/464622?referrer_id=753608

USA Hockey: How about our goalie coaching?

Starman: Right now, we probably have more good goalie coaches out there than we have ever had. Between guys that are goalie coaches at the NCAA level or the goalie coaches in juniors. It’s become more uniformed in how we do it.

USA Hockey: What do you mean by “uniformed?â€

Starman: There’s a very set style that most of these kids are playing. That has allowed us in the goalie coach world to focus on developing them more as players as opposed to developing a style. That has helped us. We are so much more on the same page than ever before. The No. 1 and No. 2 goalies today basically look alike, but one’s a little better.

 

[Chainshot]

Dom was also a practice glutton -- if he was not happy with his own play, he wanted to work, and work a lot, to correct the problem. Add on how competitive he was, how much he stayed with the play whistle-to-whistle? It just made him that much better. The guy almost never quit on a scramble.

The closest was probably Tim Thomas IMO.

A few reasons I can think of:

1. Goalie coaching at all levels is dominated by coaching butterfly. Every clinic I go to, that's the guy that is there, talking about this style. They discourage athleticism for positioning and technique. For a kid to advance with an acrobatic style, he'd have to defy coaching at every level.
2. Goalie equipment has gotten so big, that you rarely see the type of equipment Dom had i.e. small, flexible pads that allow a lot of movement. So goalies from a young age are deep inside big stiff pads.

3. Goalies are BIG guys that fill a lot of net now and less likely to be little acrobats.

And with how political US hockey is, do you think someone who defies his coach -- even if he's stopping shots at a Dom-esque level -- will be invited to continue on choice travel teams and select tournaments? I don't. They'd railroad the kid right out of existence and into pickup games in a flash if the clan of coachingdomhood is defied.

 

[Jim Bob]

And with how political US hockey is, do you think someone who defies his coach -- even if he's stopping shots at a Dom-esque level -- will be invited to continue on choice travel teams and select tournaments? I don't. They'd railroad the kid right out of existence and into pickup games in a flash if the clan of coachingdomhood is defied.

It's not just USA Hockey, it's the US, Canada, Finland, and Sweden, too.

Then you have Switzerland that is highly influenced by the Allaire's, too.

And there is a very good reason why the "modern style" has developed into what it has. It works.

If the Hasek/Brodeur type of goaltending was easy to replicate, then it would be.

 

[Chainshot]

It's not just USA Hockey, it's the US, Canada, Finland, and Sweden, too.

Then you have Switzerland that is highly influenced by the Allaire's, too.

And there is a very good reason why the "modern style" has developed into what it has. It works.

If the Hasek/Brodeur type of goaltending was easy to replicate, then it would be.

Yep, it does work and it also means as your article referenced, the goalies are cookie-cutter enough that it's easier to work on what they're doing now than ever before. It would take a superior athlete developing beyond the indoctrined style for someone to carve out a unique method of their own -- which like Hasek or Brodeur would then raise the question "Why can't anyone tend goal like (superfreak)?".

I'm curious what the Finns are doing developmentally. It seems we have another influx of fine young Finland-trained netminders.

 

[Jim Bob]

Yep, it does work and it also means as your article referenced, the goalies are cookie-cutter enough that it's easier to work on what they're doing now than ever before. It would take a superior athlete developing beyond the indoctrined style for someone to carve out a unique method of their own -- which like Hasek or Brodeur would then raise the question "Why can't anyone tend goal like (superfreak)?".

I'm curious what the Finns are doing developmentally. It seems we have another influx of fine young Finland-trained netminders.

The biggest thing Finnish hockey did was throw a lot of time and money into educating a ton of goalie coaches and making sure that goalies throughout the country grew up learning the game from coaches that knew what they were doing.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/02/the-puck-stops-here/357579/

http://ingoalmag.com/interviews/interview-goalie-guru-jukka-ropponen/

The Finnish goaltending program once again earned praise from the wider hockey community during the 2014 Sochi Olympics.

It’s not the first time the Scandinavian nation has been applauded for its efforts between the pipes, nor will it be the last, as the number of elite Finnish netminders continues to rise.

But how has Finland set itself apart when it comes to perhaps the most specialised position in all of sport?

I asked goaltending guru Jukka Ropponen what set Finnish hockey on this path, how it has helped develop not only goaltenders, but also goalie coaches, and what the Finns can teach other nations.

Ropponen makes the initial decision to focus on goaltending sound very simple.

“The Finnish Ice Hockey Association decided twenty-plus years ago that this was one of the areas we needed to focus on,” Ropponen said. “They started the program, and budgeted for it so it was supported.”

http://ingoalmag.com/technique/the-state-of-canadian-hockey-goaltending-development/

The biggest increases in each of the 2009-2010 categories in the top 10 and top 20 were the US and Scandinavian goaltenders.

As I mentioned before with just 4.5% of the world’s registered players the Finns are making a tremendous impact upon goaltending development.

The secret to this success dates back to 1985. At that time the Finnish Ice Hockey Federation (FIHF) introduced a standardized certification program for goaltending coaches. This program virtually provided each goaltender on every competitive team with a goaltender coach who taught the same basic fundamentals in goaltending. This started with goaltenders at 8 years of age! This program has continued on to the present day.

In June 2010 I spent time working at the top elite goaltending school in Finland. It was run by Finnish goaltending coach, Jukka Ropponen. There I saw the high level of expertise the young Finnish goaltenders displayed. With a sound basis in fundamentals these goaltenders were able to move up more quickly into the next level of elite instruction. I spoke with some of the top goaltending experts in Finland and they confirmed what the Finns were doing well and where they needed to improve more.

In the intervening years Finnish goaltenders have become a predominate force. Finland has some 67,336 registered players, 29,447 of whom are minor hockey aged players. The OMHA has 110,000 registered minor hockey players. Simple math dictates that we should therefore have 3.7 times the number of goaltenders the Finns have in the NHL. Instead we have gone from having 5 times their number in 2000-2001 to having just 1.14 times their number today.

Jukka lived here in Rochester for a while and his son played at RIT, but was never the #1 guy because he was like 5'8" but crazy technically strong. He would just fly around the crease and sometimes over-push.

 

[brian_griffin]

The standardization of coaching methods and preferred techniques to produce a much more narrow distribution of goalie performance/style is surely the dominant force in preventing a Hasek-clone or another inconclast to emerge.

But, I also read an article (linked from the Sabres HFboard???) or saw a youtube clip (ditto???) that claimed when Hasek came to North America, he was asked who his favorite goalie was, and he answered he didn't have one. btw, Hasek's 2 years older than I am.

It would be impossible in this digital age for a goalie to develop without being exposed to video of the top goalies in his country or the world.

 

[joshjull]

To add to the other points….

Gretzky felt Hasek had the highest hockey IQ of any player ever. He was able to read the play in a way that its doubtful anyone will ever come along that can match it or even come close.

 

[BergyWho37]

The closest was probably Tim Thomas IMO.

A few reasons I can think of:

1. Goalie coaching at all levels is dominated by coaching butterfly. Every clinic I go to, that's the guy that is there, talking about this style. They discourage athleticism for positioning and technique. For a kid to advance with an acrobatic style, he'd have to defy coaching at every level.

2. Goalie equipment has gotten so big, that you rarely see the type of equipment Dom had i.e. small, flexible pads that allow a lot of movement. So goalies from a young age are deep inside big stiff pads.

3. Goalies are BIG guys that fill a lot of net now and less likely to be little acrobats.

This is a solid post.

Loved watching both these goalies now would like to add Scouting and GM's heck even coaches don't believe in this style cause of the heart attack sequences and would call it high risk.

Thomas was in beantown and they let him rot on the bench until there hand was forced even tho he pitched shutouts in a backup roll while taking on a ridicules amount of shots.

Hope I get too see another Dominator in my life

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Agreed on Tim Thomas.

Also, this is like asking "Why hasn't anyone else replicated Gretzky's style.."

That's why they go down as great-ones.

Yep…. you can try to imitate but you can't replicate what makes the great ones great.