Why have the Devils always struggled with attendance?

[Hockeyholic]

You're talking about their new arena of course. Back when the team was winning championships, their arena was in an area very poorly served by public transportation, with no restaurants or anything else walking distance.

The Meadowlands (or as I affectionately refer to it - the toxic swamp) was catered almost exclusively to the "drive in - park - watch game - drive home" crowd.

NJ as a whole ( Sans the Giants) shouldn't have professional teams. They failed to support the Nets in their years of greatness from 01-05. They failed to support the Devils during their " Dynasty" years. Just like Oakland, they are second fiddle ( Or second class citizens) to the " Other" city.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NJ as a whole ( Sans the Giants) shouldn't have professional teams. They failed to support the Nets in their years of greatness from 01-05. They failed to support the Devils during their " Dynasty" years. Just like Oakland, they are second fiddle ( Or second class citizens) to the " Other" city.

New Jersey isn't a city.

 

[Hockeyholic]

New Jersey isn't a city.

Where did I say it was?

 

[blood gin]

Really I don't think we have as much as people say. You know back in the Brendan Byrne days that arena sat somewhere between 19,000-20,000 (they listed 19,040 as a dig at the Rangers but that was not how many seats there were)

Basically we could have a nice respectable crowd and on TV and the replays you'd see 3-4,000 red empty seats. And the Devils always did draw quite well on the road FWIW.

 

[blood gin]

They’ve always been so boring to watch with their trap system.

Their arena locations always seem to suck as well.

You nearly lost your team like 5 times due to apathy. And had the same attendance problems

The Devils at their peak were flat out dominant. They shut you down defensively and could score. People call that "boring" because we would just stomp a mudhole in their teams and get a ton of great scoring chances. Teams that actually could go toe to toe with us ended up having great exciting series.

But yea it's a common tactic of fans of teams who were freightrained by NJ "they're boring" Well jeez we outshot you 38-16 and won 5-0. Can you put up a damn fight and maybe the game would be more competitive.

 

[blood gin]

As I'm reading all these I'm wondering if the Devils home games in the 94 conference finals felt more like road games? Wondering if the crowd was like 50/50 split on Rangers fans and Devils fans? Man that would suck as a Devils player

1994 I would say it was yes. But we were still only 11 years in NJ at that time and only truly on the radar since 1988. But 1994 was the last time the Rangers had a 50/50 split there. Since then the Devils have had the advantage for every game. I mean game 6 2012 was probably 90% Devils fans if not more.

 

[blood gin]

Yes, location is a factor. Ask Ottawa. Whoever thought building a hockey arena out in the boonies away from downtown Ottawa was NOT a genius.

As for Jersey, there are other factors too. Just for starters here are some Devils' stats:

- Never had a 100 point scorer
- Franchise leader in assists in a season is Scott Stevens, with 60

You are probably getting the point here. The Devils weren't just boring to watch when they were winning Cups, they never have had that easy to attract player the fans wanted to see. Go back to 1983 when they were born, think of a time the Devils were fun to watch. I can't. Obviously great teams when they won, that were built around Brodeur and the defense with Stevens being the crown jewel. But even Niedermayer had handcuffs on him in Jersey and you never really got to see him fly. There was a "scoring by committee" forward corps since, well, always.

Maybe if Kovalchuk had stuck around there would have been some excitement about this team but there isn't. Perhaps going forward Hall can change this.

It's just a tidbit that we've never had a 100 point scorer. It's never factored in fan support. The fact that the team was horrible and couldn't even qualify for the playoffs for 5 years after moving to NJ (in a league where 16 of 21 made it) really hurt. I mean really we weren't on the radar until 1988. That run really captivated the area. But the problem was we couldn't really capitalize on it too much. The next year we missed the playoffs. 1990-1993 we made the playoffs every year but were dispatched in the first round. 1994 finally we put a consistent dominant team on the ice and started to build up the fan base

 

[blood gin]

bruce driver, john maclean, bobby holik all signed with the rangers when they became UFAs. coincidence?

Rangers just had the $. These guys were all getting older and needed that big contract. Sure it annoyed me that they signed with NYR but I understood it. They all went there to stay in the area, make big money, and sort of float around for a while in the country club as the Rangers were terrible

 

[Jim MacDonald]

1994 I would say it was yes. But we were still only 11 years in NJ at that time and only truly on the radar since 1988. But 1994 was the last time the Rangers had a 50/50 split there. Since then the Devils have had the advantage for every game. I mean game 6 2012 was probably 90% Devils fans if not more.

That's obviously fantastic to hear and absolutely how it should be!!!!

 

[blood gin]

That's obviously fantastic to hear and absolutely how it should be!!!!

Yea. Wasn't easy. And for all the good Lou did his utter refusal to market the team and promote individual players did hurt us during the winning years. We really should've been super aggressively marketed

 

[Sentinel]

Because it's about 40 min from me.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Suburban identity simply doesn't work. People in the burbs still identify with the core city. Majority of people in Northern NJ still consider New York 'the city'. New York is sexy, L.A. is sexy. New Jersey and Anaheim aren't.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

Yea. Wasn't easy. And for all the good Lou did his utter refusal to market the team and promote individual players did hurt us during the winning years. We really should've been super aggressively marketed

It's a good/interesting point you bring that up.....of course it makes sense that it would be the GM's responsibility to get the name out there/buzz flowing.....coming to mind is the "ACE" line with Elias/Arnott/Sykora……"Watch our Aces strap up their laces this coming fall." etc.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Suburban identity simply doesn't work. People in the burbs still identify with the core city. Majority of people in Northern NJ still consider New York 'the city'. New York is sexy, L.A. is sexy. New Jersey and Anaheim aren't.

Funny that the "New York Giants" and "New York Jets" actually play deeper into New Jersey than the "New Jersey Devils" do now.

Decades ago, I remember a movement to change the name of the Giants to the "New Jersey Giants" that went nowhere.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Funny that the "New York Giants" and "New York Jets" actually play deeper into New Jersey than the "New Jersey Devils" do now.

Decades ago, I remember a movement to change the name of the Giants to the "New Jersey Giants" that went nowhere.

It's less about the location of the venue and more about the image the team's brand projects. The Jets and Giants both still project a NYC image (in the Jets' case even more specifically somewhat of a Queens/Long Island image) in spite of playing in NJ. The Devils and Nets specifically said "nope this isn't a New York team, this is a New Jersey team". Being a fan of a team is always also an identity statement as you may literally wear the city's name on your head or chest.

But if you're in any other part of the New York metropolitan area why would you want to identify specifically with New Jersey? Heck, even if you live in New Jersey you may prefer to identify with New York rather than New Jersey, maybe because your parents moved out of the city and you inherited that local neighborhood identity, maybe because it's cooler to say to people you moved to New York rather than to New Jersey. It's simple logic that the group of people inclined to identify with New York is X times greater than the group identifying with New Jersey.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

It's less about the location of the venue and more about the image the team's brand projects. The Jets and Giants both still project a NYC image (in the Jets' case even more specifically somewhat of a Queens/Long Island image) in spite of playing in NJ. The Devils and Nets specifically said "nope this isn't a New York team, this is a New Jersey team". Being a fan of a team is always also an identity statement as you may literally wear the city's name on your head or chest.

But if you're in any other part of the New York metropolitan area why would you want to identify specifically with New Jersey? Heck, even if you live in New Jersey you may prefer to identify with New York rather than New Jersey, maybe because your parents moved out of the city and you inherited that local neighborhood identity, maybe because it's cooler to say to people you moved to New York rather than to New Jersey. It's simple logic that the group of people inclined to identify with New York is X times greater than the group identifying with New Jersey.

legit question: is long island (as a brand, an idea, an identity) any more sexy than jersey city or newark?

brooklyn and queens, i get. but long island?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's less about the location of the venue and more about the image the team's brand projects. The Jets and Giants both still project a NYC image (in the Jets' case even more specifically somewhat of a Queens/Long Island image) in spite of playing in NJ. The Devils and Nets specifically said "nope this isn't a New York team, this is a New Jersey team". Being a fan of a team is always also an identity statement as you may literally wear the city's name on your head or chest.

But if you're in any other part of the New York metropolitan area why would you want to identify specifically with New Jersey? Heck, even if you live in New Jersey you may prefer to identify with New York rather than New Jersey, maybe because your parents moved out of the city and you inherited that local neighborhood identity, maybe because it's cooler to say to people you moved to New York rather than to New Jersey. It's simple logic that the group of people inclined to identify with New York is X times greater than the group identifying with New Jersey.

Well yeah... there's a reason the Giants never seriously entertained changing their name... but they had to (briefly) humor the NJ politicians proposing it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

legit question: is long island (as a brand, an idea, an identity) any more sexy than jersey city or newark?

brooklyn and queens, i get. but long island?

Most New Yorkers view Long Island as snootier than New Jersey, but just as lame.

 

[blood gin]

Long Island seems to have a couple of identities. Way out east you have very wealthy folks in enormous mansions. You also have people there who don't have lives connected to NYC at all and may travel to it once or twice a year. Lots of jobs and lifestyles out there connected to the ocean and such

Closer to the city you have bedroom communities. Just nice suburbs with people who commute via train every day to Manhattan. Extremely similar to counties in Northern NJ, though Northern NJ is probably a more desirable place to live with more to do than Western Long Island

 

[Boxscore]

Being from Philly, I've seen the Devils live in NJ tons of times since around 1990. Personally, I loved heading up the NJTP to 16W and getting off at the Meadowlands! Not that it was the best experience, but it was charming in a way. As for the Prudential Center, I hate everything about it.

Here's why I think the Devils have problems with attendance:

1. The Prudential Center is terrible. It's the ultimate cookie-cutter arena in a horrible location. Yes, Newark itself is a bad neighborhood, but parking is like $30 and there is no downtown area to hangout and make a "day" out of it. You want to leave, see a game, and GTFO as quickly as possible.

2. The inside of the Prudential Center offers no worthwhile fan experience. There's one "bar" and it's a club that you need special access to (yet it's usually 3/4 empty). In Philly, the Wells Fargo Center has a huge indoor/outdoor bar & pavilion with great drinks, eateries, and it's open to everyone with a ticket, over an hour before puck drop and stays open a couple of hours after the Flyers game. This is a great place to hangout, drink, meet other hockey fans, etc. I have no idea what the Devils were thinking by having a "exclusive" bar/club that pretty much shuns the majority of fans. It's embarrassing.

3. The Devils are in a tough spot, surrounded by Rangers, Flyers, and to a lesser extent, Islanders fans. All three of these teams have history and loyalty, and were there way before the Devils.

4. The Devils style of play is B-O-R-I-N-G. Even when they were great, they were sub par from a purely entertainment standpoint. Trap, block shots, Marty makes a big save, the Devils capitalize on a mistake and score. Yawn. Today, other than some flashes by Hall, they are the same boring team. I'm not being obnoxious, just brutally honest. Hall and Hischier are the only "exciting" players they have, in terms of name recognition. They have a bunch of "good, team guys" but they are zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. It's not enough to just win games anymore. If the Devils are charging a crap ton for tickets, $30 for parking and $12.50 a beer, they better provide entertainment.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Being from Philly, I've seen the Devils live in NY tons of times since around 1990. Personally, I loved heading up the NJTP to 16W and getting off at the Meadowlands! Not that it was the best experience, but it was charming in a way. As for the Prudential Center, I hate everything about it.

Here's why I think the Devils have problems with attendance:

1. The Prudential Center is terrible. It's the ultimate cookie-cutter area in a horrible location. Yes, Newark itself is a bad neighborhood, but parking is like $30 and there is no downtown area to handout and make a "day" out of it. You want to leave, see a game, and GTFO as quickly as possible.

2. The inside of the Prudential Center offers no worthwhile fan experience. There's one "bar" and it's a club that you special access to (yet it's usually 3/4 empty). In Philly, the Wells Fargo Center has a huge indoor/outdoor bar & pavilion with great drinks, eateries, and it's open to everyone with a ticket, over an hour before puck drop and stays open a couple of hours after the Flyers game. This is a great place to hangout, drink, meet other hockey fans, etc. I have no idea what the Devils were thinking by having a "exclusive" bar/club that pretty much shuns the majority of fans. It's embarrassing.

3. The Devils are in a tough spot, surrounded by Rangers, Flyers, and to a lesser extent, Islanders fans. All three of these teams have history and loyalty, and where there way before the Devils.

4. The Devils style of play is B-O-R-I-N-G. Even when they were great, they were sub par from a purely entertainment standpoint. Trap, block shots, Marty makes a big save, the Devils capitalize on a mistake and score. Yawn. Today, other than some flashes by Hall, they are the same boring team. I'm not being obnoxious, just brutally honest. Hall and Hischier are the only "exciting" players they have, in terms of name recognition. They have a bunch of "good, team guys" but they are zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. It's not enough to just win games anymore. If the Devils are charging a crap ton for tickets, $30 for parking and $12.50 a beer, they better provide entertainment.

Newark actually has the biggest Portuguese/Brazilian neighborhood in North America right next to Penn Station. I love going out to eat there. I agree that there isn't much nightlife catering to the hockey watching demographic.

And Newark definitely has a bad rap from everything that isnt downtown or the Ironbound.

 

[Boxscore]

Newark actually has the biggest Portuguese/Brazilian neighborhood in North America right next to Penn Station. I love going out to eat there. I agree that there isn't much nightlife catering to the hockey watching demographic.

And Newark definitely has a bad rap from everything that isnt downtown or the Ironbound.

I didn't mean to seem like a jerk. I'm sure there are some really nice, interesting areas of quality in Newark. I mean, 5 minutes from the Wells Fargo Center in Philly offers some of the best Italian restaurants, hidden gem bars, etc. But to the average fan, this stuff is irrelevant.

Fans today are looking for a full day/night hockey experience. Accessibility, fun atmosphere, decent hangouts, exciting game on the ice. Unfortunately, I don't feel the Devils offer that, both through their style of play, and mostly with their arena experience.

Last year I visited Philly, DC, NYC, NJ, OTT, MTL, TOR, BOS, CLB and BUF. Without question the Devils hockey experience was dead last by far. It wasn't even close to the rest, including OTT and their building had some empty seats and is in a horrible location (not bad neighborhood) but very isolated. At least in Ottawa, there was a couple of cool bars in the arena that were packed with die-hard hockey fans. I had a blast talking hockey before the game and met some very knowledgeable hockey fans. Overall it was fun.

The first thing the Devils need to do is make patrons and fans feel "welcome" when they come to a game. Right now it has a vibe that screams, "pay for your ticket, watch the game, then peace out." Even the ticket takers and security guards look miserable lol.

 

[Tarantula]

It's less about the location of the venue and more about the image the team's brand projects. The Jets and Giants both still project a NYC image (in the Jets' case even more specifically somewhat of a Queens/Long Island image) in spite of playing in NJ. The Devils and Nets specifically said "nope this isn't a New York team, this is a New Jersey team". Being a fan of a team is always also an identity statement as you may literally wear the city's name on your head or chest.

But if you're in any other part of the New York metropolitan area why would you want to identify specifically with New Jersey? Heck, even if you live in New Jersey you may prefer to identify with New York rather than New Jersey, maybe because your parents moved out of the city and you inherited that local neighborhood identity, maybe because it's cooler to say to people you moved to New York rather than to New Jersey. It's simple logic that the group of people inclined to identify with New York is X times greater than the group identifying with New Jersey.

I agree with your above points as I have lived in a few Burb cities, but I don't think that was a huge factor in their attendance during those lean years. They were a distant 3rd no matter what with those circumstances, especially when they arrived, they were a poor organization.

I think your point could be very accurate for media broadcasts however...........

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I agree with your above points as I have lived in a few Burb cities, but I don't think that was a huge factor in their attendance during those lean years. They were a distant 3rd no matter what with those circumstances, especially when they arrived, they were a poor organization.

I think your point could be very accurate for media broadcasts however...........

Obviously being bad never helps, but during their good to great era, let's call it the Brodeur era for lack of a better term, a team with a better structural situation would have gathered enough bandwagon fans to last a generation as a major player in their area. It probably didn't help that the Rangers beat the curse in 94 and at least on paper seemed like a contender for much of the remaining 90s, but it seems pretty obvious to me that even if the Rangers were crap many would stick with them just because of the history, the garden, the glamour and all.

 

[Tarantula]

Obviously being bad never helps, but during their good to great era, let's call it the Brodeur era for lack of a better term, a team with a better structural situation would have gathered enough bandwagon fans to last a generation as a major player in their area. It probably didn't help that the Rangers beat the curse in 94 and at least on paper seemed like a contender for much of the remaining 90s, but it seems pretty obvious to me that even if the Rangers were crap many would stick with them just because of the history, the garden, the glamour and all.

True, NYR will always be tops in that market. Legacy, just as the Cubs over the WhiteSox, Yankees over Mets. I agree having the NJ moniker didn't help at all, but I believe they are at 3rd place in that market from the onset, though maybe having a NY name might have curried more favour at the box office as they got to be steady contenders.

I wonder if the NY name would have made a difference in broadcast revenue? Did they have a regional tv deal at the time, and was it available Metro wide? What where the deals with the other two teams? It would be interesting to see how those 3 franchises competed for eyes and ears on regional tv and radio exposure as well during those times, and how that could effect attendance.

Supply and demand?