Why was the 1980s Norris Division so bad?

streitz

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Everyone talks about the battles of quebec, alberta, Mtl/boston, NY/NY, flyers/everyone. I feel like the bloodiest rivalry of the 80's was the Northstars/Blackhawks.


Two mostly mediocre to crap teams full of muscle just beating the crap out of eachother. Hawks/blues and Leafs/Wings were also usually bloodbaths.


 

VanIslander

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Revisionist history?

CHICAGO was one of the best teams of the 1980's, in constant contender talks and repeated conference final runs!!

St. Louis had one of the greatest playmakers in Federko and several times threatened the west, though the Battle of Alberta defined the decade.

I don't get where this thread is coming from.
 
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Nerowoy nora tolad

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Revisionist history?

CHICAGO was one of the best teams of the 1980's, in constant contender talks and repeated conference final runs!!

St. Louis had one of the greatest playmakers in Federko and several times threatened the west, though the Battle of Alberta defined the decade.

I don't get where this thread is coming from.

Umm, no the Norris Division definitely sucked during the 80s. Trying to argue that they were great might be the craziest hockey argument Ive ever heard in my life.

So lets say you dont believe my advanced numbers that say they were bad. Lets look at the thing every player claims theyd sell their left nut for in the postgame interview: Points, because, we all play to win, right?.

For the time period of 1982-1990, the NHL schedule was 80 games, and the Norris division iced 46 team-seasons across 6 franchises. In order to be a 0.500 team back then you had to earn 80 points. A 0.500 team at least wins as much as it loses, so we can all agree its a middle of the pack sort of team, right?

Of those 46 team-seasons, a grand total of 15 (33%) managed to hit 80 points or more (one of them being the 82 Jets who promptly moved to the Smythe next year). If you move the bar up to 85 points, only 9 of the 46 clear the bar (19%). And lets say we move the bar up a little bit more to 90 points (because who ever heard of a serious cup contender that couldnt clear 90 points right?). A measly 4 teams from the 82-90 Norris (8.5%) manage to clear the hilariously low bar of 90 points.

When you can count the number of plausible cup contenders from one division over nearly a decade on one hand, I think we can all agree they sucked. A lot.
 

FaceWash

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When it comes to win/loss record, point totals, Stanley Cup Finals appearances, etc... the 1982 - 1989 Norris Division sucked. But when it came to hard hitting, in your face, beat the crap out of each other hockey, you couldn't beat the old 'Chuck' Norris Division. The entire division was a rivalry and the teams all truly hated each other.
 
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c9777666

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The Smythe Division was arguably worse from 1974-81. Some truly horrific teams played in that group. In fact, it was not until the 1984-85 season that a majority of the Smythe Division teams finished with winning records.

The original Smythe Division was indeed ghastly.

Before it became the division we all remember (Western Canada and the LA Kings), it had some less than stellar first place teams save for the 1980-81 St. Louis Blues.

In 1978-79, the Atlanta Flames had 41 wins and 90 points but were in last place in a tough Patrick Division.

Contrast that with the Smythe standings of 1978-79:

Chicago: 29-36-15, 73 points
Vancouver: 25-42-13, 63 points
St. Louis: 18-50-12, 48 points (Last Blues team to miss the playoffs for eons)
Colorado: 15-53-12, 42 Points

My god! 73 points! Even the worst post-realignment Norris Division never had a 1st place team with THAT bad a record (1987 Blues had 79 points and 32 wins)

Atlanta had a quality record yet was stuck in the best of 3 Russian Roulette playoff format while Chicago got 2 guaranteed home games against the Islanders.

The famous Chicago-St. Louis rivalry for about a half-dozen years was in the Smythe for about 7 years long before that division became well-known for the Battle of Alberta.
 
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c9777666

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If anything, it was never a boring division.
 
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Iceman

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Wings were rebuilding in the 70's and 80's, by the late 80's they started to improve when Yzerman came into his own and they started getting some help around him.

North stars didn't have a superstar, they were forced to trade Bobby Smith which made them a much weaker hockey team during the decade.

Leafs had Ballard. On the ice they never had an elite center after Sittler who was traded in 1982. Or a goalie. Or elite defencemen except maybe Salming who was old by the 80's. They had some good wingers though.

Blackhawks were a 1 line team with a cheap owner, not as bad as Ballard but his own set of problems. The hawks were the strongest Norris team from 82-93 though, by far. Mostly because of Savard and Larmer, later Reonick.

St Louis was the team I watched the least in that division, I mostly remember them having problems with goaltending and a lack of quality wingers. No idea about their financial constraints, they also had a habit of making bad trades, sometimes based on money or off ice issues.



Overall I loved watching the Chuck Norris Division. I used to watch the leafs every chance I got in the 80's and early 90's. Not because they were good or that I was a fan, but because they sucked, were entertaining and had tons of fights in their games.

What help did Yzerman get in the 80s? Probert and Gallant?
 

Nerowoy nora tolad

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What help did Yzerman get in the 80s? Probert and Gallant?
Hmm lets see

1987-88 Detroit Red Wings Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Chiasson was a solid offensive Dman who could run a good powerplay in the mold of Jeff Norton or Tom Kurvers. Hes not remembered as well as he should be because he died mid-career in an auto accident

Zombo was ok Dman IIRC

Probert was a much better hockey player than most people remember IMO

Other than theres not much, a few before-their-time guys in Graves, Murphy, Oates, and some random odds and ends jammed in there.

My favourite part about the 1988 Red Wings is that they managed to be a top defensive team in the league with... drumroll... Glen Hanlon and Greg Stefan in the nets
 

Jim MacDonald

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Oct 7, 2017
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Everyone talks about the battles of quebec, alberta, Mtl/boston, NY/NY, flyers/everyone. I feel like the bloodiest rivalry of the 80's was the Northstars/Blackhawks.


Two mostly mediocre to crap teams full of muscle just beating the crap out of eachother. Hawks/blues and Leafs/Wings were also usually bloodbaths.





That was seriously crazy to watch! I'm amazed the benched didn't empty and everyone paired up with the ice looking like a yard sale.....wow did Secord smack em!!! Sheesh!!!
 

c9777666

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Aug 31, 2016
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For as bad as the Norris Division was at times in the 80s, how about the version that preceded it?

Montreal/Los Angeles/Washington/Pittsburgh/Detroit, Hartford its first 2 years after the WHA Merger. (Wow, talk about a hectic travel schedule!)

Before it became the Midwestern tough guy division, it was basically Montreal lapping the field (other than the 1975 + 1981 Kings, the Habs won that division by at least 30 points every other year!

Even Edmonton never won their division titles by 30+ points.
 

streitz

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Jul 22, 2018
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CHICAGO was one of the best teams of the 1980's, in constant contender talks and repeated conference final runs!!


All those conference finals to get killed by the smythe division every single time until 1992. Super top quality team chicago blackhawks 1980's version.


You wanna see a picture of the 80's blackhawks?



cropped_GettyImages-56194318.jpg



That may aswell of been the whole team.
 

VanIslander

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Nonsense.

Chicago had A LOT of great players.

Losing to the Smythe division in repeated conference finals is no poor showing when the Smythe had a dynasty Oilers and second best Flames.
 

streitz

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Jul 22, 2018
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Nonsense.

Chicago had A LOT of great players.

Losing to the Smythe division in repeated conference finals is no poor showing when the Smythe had a dynasty Oilers and second best Flames.



They also got spanked by the canucks in 1982.


Outside of Larmer and Savard they basically sucked.
 

Jim MacDonald

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Oct 7, 2017
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All those conference finals to get killed by the smythe division every single time until 1992. Super top quality team chicago blackhawks 1980's version.


You wanna see a picture of the 80's blackhawks?



cropped_GettyImages-56194318.jpg



That may aswell of been the whole team.


This picture is so awesome/epic! ha ha ha! Al Secord is #20 correct? I wonder if Secord was a Leaf first or a Hawk first?
 

VanIslander

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They also got spanked by the canucks in 1982.
I know. I was there at Pacific Coliseum when coach Neilson's towel power changed hockey forever. King Richard Brodeur was incredible in net, leading our Cinderella team to the Stanley Cup Finals.
 

c9777666

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Aug 31, 2016
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Nonsense.

Chicago had A LOT of great players.

Losing to the Smythe division in repeated conference finals is no poor showing when the Smythe had a dynasty Oilers and second best Flames.

And yet nobody broke through the Smythe barrier in between its first and last years (1982 Canucks, 1993 Kings).

Vancouver couldn’t do it even in 1992 when the Oilers were basically running on fumes, nor could the Jets in the Hawerchuk years.

For as great as the Smythe was, it was a bit predictable
 
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streitz

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Jul 22, 2018
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This picture is so awesome/epic! ha ha ha! Al Secord is #20 correct? I wonder if Secord was a Leaf first or a Hawk first?



Yeah it's Secord in the middle, he was a Bruin then a Hawk then a Leaf then a Hawk again I think to end his career. That's without looking it up he might of played for someone else aswell.




edit- Al Secord hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com


I was mostly right but he also had a short stint with the flyers
 
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Tarantula

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That was seriously crazy to watch! I'm amazed the benched didn't empty and everyone paired up with the ice looking like a yard sale.....wow did Secord smack em!!! Sheesh!!!

Secord probably nailed ole Dino in Jr A as well, Secord with a rumbling Fincups team coached by Templeton, Dino with the Knights and a mild mannered Bill Long as coach. I think there was a altercation in the bowels of the old London gardens before a exhibition game, can't remember who was involved.
 

The Panther

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I think the "Norris could never get past Smythe" argument is a little exaggerated. In '82, the Smythe team to beat was Vancouver, arguably the worst team ever to make the Finals (Norris lost). In '83, Edmonton had not yet won anything, and Chicago was only a few points behind them in the standings, but got swept. Yes, '84 and '85 the Norris had no hope. But then again in '86, Calgary was the competition (an 89-point team) and St.Louis took them to game 7, so could have won. Even in '90, the Oilers were only a 90-point team that nobody thought would win, and were without Gretzky, Coffey, and Fuhr. Chicago had a 2-1 lead in that series but couldn't sustain it. Finally, in '91 Minnesota made it all the way, with perhaps a weaker team than many of the 80s' teams that failed (but they faced a decimated Oilers' line-up in the third round).
 

Jets4Life

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I know. I was there at Pacific Coliseum when coach Neilson's towel power changed hockey forever. King Richard Brodeur was incredible in net, leading our Cinderella team to the Stanley Cup Finals.
Ummm...how did that "change hockey forever?"

I would not really call the 1982 Canucks, a team that had arguably the easiest run to the Stanley Cup, a "Cinderella team." Vancouver defeated a mediocre Flames team. Then they disposed of a horrible Kings team, who by a complete miracle, defeated the Oilers. The Canucks then defeated a horrible Blackhawks club. When they faced a team with a record over 0.500, they got absolutely demolished by the Islanders.
 

VanIslander

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It ignited fanbases around the league to start waving towels. That's how that Vancouver-Chicago game (the towel power) changed hockey forever.
 

Jets4Life

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It ignited fanbases around the league to start waving towels. That's how that Vancouver-Chicago game (the towel power) changed hockey forever.

Other sports teams had this tradition long before the Canucks did it in 1982. The Pittsburgh Steelers fans had waved the yellow "terrible towels" for years before Vancouver did. The Canucks may have been the first team to use rally towels in hockey, but I would hardly say it "changed hockey forever."

It is untrue that the 1982 Vancouver Canucks ignited fan bases in other NHL cities to start waving towels. In fact, it would not be until 1987, when the Winnipeg Jets dressed in white, and waved pom-poms, that it was tried in any other city. It only became popular in many NHL cities in the 1990's.
 

FerrisRox

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All those conference finals to get killed by the smythe division every single time until 1992. Super top quality team chicago blackhawks 1980's version.


You wanna see a picture of the 80's blackhawks?



cropped_GettyImages-56194318.jpg



That may aswell of been the whole team.

Uh... No. Not even close. Chicago had a lot of solid players in the 80's.

For example, Doug Wilson who won the Norris Trophy in 1982 and was an excellent blueliner throughout the decade.

Darryl Sutter was an excellent goal scorer for the Hawks. He scored 40-goals in his rookie year with the club, had 31-goal season in '82-'83 and rang up three more 20-goal seasons despite playing just 40, 59 and 49 games in those seasons.

Troy Murray was an excellent two-way center that had a 45-goal, 99-point season for Chicago and Ed Olczyk came from the US Olympic team right to the Hawks and contributed immediately before being swapped to Toronto in a deal that brought Rick Vaive to Chicago where he scored 43 goals and then got sent to Buffalo for Adam Creighton who managed 34 goals and 70 points in his first full year with the club.

Steve Thomas also came over in the Rick Vaive trade and put up 40 goals for the Hawks

Dirk Graham was an excellent defensive forward who topped out at 78 points and 33 goals his best year with Chicago and went on to become their captain (and the first African American captain in NHL history.)

There were plenty of good players in Chicago, they just weren't on the same level as the Oilers who they collided with in the playoffs on a few occasions, but really, not many teams were.
 
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FerrisRox

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Yeah it's Secord in the middle, he was a Bruin then a Hawk then a Leaf then a Hawk again I think to end his career. That's without looking it up he might of played for someone else aswell.




edit- Al Secord hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com


I was mostly right but he also had a short stint with the flyers

After five years out of the league, Al Secord wanted to try to return to the National Hockey League and contacted the Ottawa Senators about a tryout. The Senators ultimately decided against giving him a look and Secord instead joined the Chicago Wolves of the IHL. At 36 years old, Secord cracked the roster and chipped in 13 goals in 59 games. The following season he played 47 games and had 8 goals and 16 assists before retiring for good.
 

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