Why even have all-star team voting for goalies and defensemen?

[seventieslord]

I have always wondered about this.

I know that prior to 1983 the Vezina was like the Jennings, and the best goalie was really the one that made the first all-star team. But since then, vezina and first all-star team have meant basically the same thing, aside from a couple isolated cases.

For defensemen, same thing. You win the norris or you're the runner-up, you make the first all-star team.... generally.

But why should there be a distinction between the two? Shouldn't the first all-star team goalie always be the one who wins the vezina? Shouldn't the second all-star team goalie be the vezina runner-up? Shouldn't the norris winner and runner-up always be the first all-star team defensemen? Shouldn't the 3rd and 4th Norris vote getters be the 2nd all-star team defensemen? The criteria are exactly the same, are they not?

Just as a random example, look at the voting for the Vezina and all-star teams in 1987-88.

All-star team:
Grant Fuhr 297 (58-2-1);
Patrick Roy 64 (2-15-9);
Tom Barrasso 60 (1-15-10);
Clint Malarchuk 29 (0-7-8);
Mike Vernon 23 (0-6-5);
Rejean Lemelin 20 (1-3-6);
Ron Hextall 16 (0-3-7);
Kelly Hrudey 14 (0-4-2);
John Vanbiesbrouck 13 (0-3-4);
Pete Peeters 12 (0-3-3);
Brian Hayward 9 (1-0-4);
Mike Liut 7 (0-2-1);
Glen Hanlon 3 (0-0-3)

Vezina voting:
Grant Fuhr 78 (14-2-2);
Tom Barrasso 22 (2-3-3);
Kelly Hrudey 17 (1-4-0);
Brian Hayward 14 (2-1-1);
Mike Vernon 14 (0-4-2);
John Vanbiesbrouck 12 (1-2-1);
Rejean Lemelin 9 (1-1-1);
Patrick Roy 8 (0-2-2);
Glen Hanlon 5 (0-1-2);
Greg Stefan 3 (0-1-0);
Clint Malarchuk 3 (0-0-3);
Ron Hextall 2 (0-0-2);
Mike Liut 2 (0-0-2)

OK, so Grant Fuhr was the best goalie in the league that season. But who was 2nd best? Patrick Roy, who made the 2nd all-star team, but was 8th in vezina voting? Or Tom Barrasso, who was the Vezina runner-up and 3rd in all-star voting? Malarchuk was 4th and 11th. Vanbiesbrouck was 6th and 9th. Hrudey was 3rd and 8th. Hextall was 7th and 12th. Hanlon was 9th and 13th. Peeters was 10th in all-star voting with 6 total votes but did not get a single Vezina vote. Hayward was 4th and 11th!

I mean, why is there such a discrepancy? And what are we supposed to accept as the legitimate measure of who the 2nd-10th best goalies were that season?

Click to read more...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

we don’t seem to have a thread to discuss discrepancies between vezina and AST voting, so i’m epically bumping the young 70slord, who may or may not have known at the time that unlike most awards the vezina is voted on by the GMs.

i’ve always found it interesting when some goalies consistently place higher in one than the other. curtis joseph is the big one. the GMs loved him. pre-vezina roy was the opposite; the Gms just didn’t “get” him yet. can’t think of other examples off the top of my head but i feel like we’ve discussed this before.

this year, ben bishop got not a single vezina vote but finished fourth in AST voting. that feels extreme.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

we don’t seem to have a thread to discuss discrepancies between vezina and AST voting, so i’m epically bumping the young 70slord, who may or may not have known at the time that unlike most awards the vezina is voted on by the GMs.

i’ve always found it interesting when some goalies consistently place higher in one than the other. curtis joseph is the big one. the GMs loved him. pre-vezina roy was the opposite; the Gms just didn’t “get” him yet. can’t think of other examples off the top of my head but i feel like we’ve discussed this before.

this year, ben bishop got not a single vezina vote but finished fourth in AST voting. that feels extreme.

GMs are big on winning. After all, that's their job.

I would imagine some GMs give it about 15 minutes of thought. After all, its not really their job.

 

[mrhockey193195]

One discrepancy that immediately comes to mind - Roy was 1st team all star in 2002, but Theodore won the Vezina (and Hart).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

One discrepancy that immediately comes to mind - Roy was 1st team all star in 2002, but Theodore won the Vezina (and Hart).

those were probably the two closest votes ever, so we can probably chalk that discrepancy up to statistical noise.

2002 vezina voting:

Place	Player	Age	Tm	Votes	Vote%	1st	2nd	3rd
1	Jose Theodore	25	MTL	105	70.00	15	9	3
2	Patrick Roy	36	COL	105	70.00	12	15	0
3	Sean Burke	35	PHX	27	18.00	2	1	14
4	Evgeni Nabokov	26	SJS	10	6.67	0	3	1
5	Martin Brodeur	29	NJD	7	4.67	1	0	2
6	Dominik Hasek	37	DET	6	4.00	0	1	3
7	Felix Potvin	30	LAK	3	2.00	0	1	0
8	Nikolai Khabibulin	29	TBL	3	2.00	0	0	3
9	Tommy Salo	30	EDM	2	1.33	0	0	2
10	Byron Dafoe	30	BOS	1	0.67	0	0	1
10	Curtis Joseph	34	TOR	1	0.67	0	0	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

AST:

Place	Player	Age	Tm	Votes	Vote%	1st	2nd	3rd
1	Patrick Roy	36	COL	226	75.33	30	24	4
2	Jose Theodore	25	MTL	210	70.00	26	25	5
3	Sean Burke	35	PHX	55	18.33	3	5	25
4	Dominik Hasek	37	DET	31	10.33	1	4	14
5	Martin Brodeur	29	NJD	6	2.00	0	1	3
6	Roman Cechmanek	30	PHI	4	1.33	0	1	1
6	Nikolai Khabibulin	29	TBL	4	1.33	0	1	1
8	Dan Cloutier	25	VAN	1	0.33	0	0	1
8	Evgeni Nabokov	26	SJS	1	0.33	0	0	1
8	Felix Potvin	30	LAK	1	0.33	0	0	1
8	Jocelyn Thibault	27	CHI	1	0.33	0	0	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

re: the other thread about iginla in 2002, interesting that three GMs left both roy and theodore off their ballots altogether.

 

[quoipourquoi]

those were probably the two closest votes ever, so we can probably chalk that discrepancy up to statistical noise.

2002 vezina voting:

Place	Player	Age	Tm	Votes	Vote%	1st	2nd	3rd
1	Jose Theodore	25	MTL	105	70.00	15	9	3
2	Patrick Roy	36	COL	105	70.00	12	15	0
3	Sean Burke	35	PHX	27	18.00	2	1	14
4	Evgeni Nabokov	26	SJS	10	6.67	0	3	1
5	Martin Brodeur	29	NJD	7	4.67	1	0	2
6	Dominik Hasek	37	DET	6	4.00	0	1	3
7	Felix Potvin	30	LAK	3	2.00	0	1	0
8	Nikolai Khabibulin	29	TBL	3	2.00	0	0	3
9	Tommy Salo	30	EDM	2	1.33	0	0	2
10	Byron Dafoe	30	BOS	1	0.67	0	0	1
10	Curtis Joseph	34	TOR	1	0.67	0	0	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

AST:

Place	Player	Age	Tm	Votes	Vote%	1st	2nd	3rd
1	Patrick Roy	36	COL	226	75.33	30	24	4
2	Jose Theodore	25	MTL	210	70.00	26	25	5
3	Sean Burke	35	PHX	55	18.33	3	5	25
4	Dominik Hasek	37	DET	31	10.33	1	4	14
5	Martin Brodeur	29	NJD	6	2.00	0	1	3
6	Roman Cechmanek	30	PHI	4	1.33	0	1	1
6	Nikolai Khabibulin	29	TBL	4	1.33	0	1	1
8	Dan Cloutier	25	VAN	1	0.33	0	0	1
8	Evgeni Nabokov	26	SJS	1	0.33	0	0	1
8	Felix Potvin	30	LAK	1	0.33	0	0	1
8	Jocelyn Thibault	27	CHI	1	0.33	0	0	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

re: the other thread about iginla in 2002, interesting that three GMs left both roy and theodore off their ballots altogether.

Regarding the three GMs (each), here are the weekly THN Top-10 Goaltender Rankings in the second-half of the season:

It wouldn’t have been difficult to take Sean Burke, and people might have had long memories on Nikolai Khabibulin, but I’m guessing it was a looking-only-at-the-Wins column situation to somehow not find the room.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Regarding the three GMs (each), here are the weekly THN Top-10 Goaltender Rankings in the second-half of the season:

It wouldn’t have been difficult to take Sean Burke, and people might have had long memories on Nikolai Khabibulin, but I’m guessing it was a looking-only-at-the-Wins column situation to somehow not find the room.

Is this a Picasso?

 

[sr edler]

This graph is gorgeous. Biron & Potvin looks like whales resurfacing.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Is this a Picasso?

there actually was an artist who made art that looks basically like qpq's visualization —

Estate of Channa Horwitz | Artists | Lisson Gallery

her work is gorgeous

 

[tarheelhockey]

Regarding the three GMs (each), here are the weekly THN Top-10 Goaltender Rankings in the second-half of the season:

It wouldn’t have been difficult to take Sean Burke, and people might have had long memories on Nikolai Khabibulin, but I’m guessing it was a looking-only-at-the-Wins column situation to somehow not find the room.

Let's talk about Roman Cechmanek.