Why Doesn't John Carlson Get More Norris Love

Revelation

Registered User
Aug 15, 2016
5,298
2,963
He puts up terrible defensive metrics despite facing pretty soft competition.

He's an offense/PP specialist.

A poor man's Nick Holden if you will. The type of offensive specialist who plays top ES and PK minutes and all the crucial situations for a perennially winning team. Maybe like a Shattenkirk whose coach isn't versed enough in Corscompf%& to scratch him.

When are you dropping by to erase the Caps from the Cup since their advanced stats last year were noob tier?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ProspectsSTC

BillNy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
477
198
A poor man's Nick Holden if you will. The type of offensive specialist who plays top ES and PK minutes and all the crucial situations for a perennially winning team. Maybe like a Shattenkirk whose coach isn't versed enough in Corscompf% to scratch him.

When are you dropping by to erase the Caps from the Cup since their advanced stats last year were noob tier?

Kevin Shattenkirk was very good. He lost a step. The Capitals won despite bad underlying numbers, it doesn't mean it's something they're particularly likely to repeat.

Anyway, 80 defensemen had 150 or more minutes on the penalty kill last year. Carlson allowed fewer shot attempts per 60 minutes against than 18 of them. fewer unblocked shot attempts than 27 of them, and fewer goals against than 23 of them. Soooo, he's decently getting decently below average results on the penalty kill.

His 5on5 results are bad. I don't think he's a bad defenseman, because I think some circumstances there make him look worse than he is, but they're not impressive results. Blah blah "plays loads of minutes" like, we'll seriously consider maybe six or seven guys for the Norris, but like 62 play "top minutes." Carlson doesn't suck or anything, but if you honestly think he's in any way comparable to Karlsson, Doughty, Hedman, Ekman-Larsson, Subban, Giordano, Jones, etc, you're kidding yourself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DominikBokkFan

BillNy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
477
198
Well that’s just not true. Fun fact - through 8 games, Carlson has more ES goals than any skater on the Rangers.

And people love to say that Carlson has it easy with Ovi and company on the PP. And it does have merit. But let us not forget watching Shattenkirk fumble around running QB for the Caps two years ago. There’s still skill involved in serving it up in Ovis wheelhouse.

hmm, okay, we'll make a special Norris trophy for the first eight games of the season, and he can fight for it with uhh Morgan Rielly lol.
 

gtrower

Registered User
Feb 10, 2016
1,887
2,547
hmm, okay, we'll make a special Norris trophy for the first eight games of the season, and he can fight for it with uhh Morgan Rielly lol.

...that’s the point of the thread. It’s not just 8 games. He put up big numbers last year, was on fire through the playoffs, and is continuing it with a hot start to this season. No need for a special trophy. But he should be squarely on the Norris radar.
 

Revelation

Registered User
Aug 15, 2016
5,298
2,963
Kevin Shattenkirk was very good. He lost a step. The Capitals won despite bad underlying numbers, it doesn't mean it's something they're particularly likely to repeat.

Anyway, 80 defensemen had 150 or more minutes on the penalty kill last year. Carlson allowed fewer shot attempts per 60 minutes against than 18 of them. fewer unblocked shot attempts than 27 of them, and fewer goals against than 23 of them. Soooo, he's decently getting decently below average results on the penalty kill.

His 5on5 results are bad. I don't think he's a bad defenseman, because I think some circumstances there make him look worse than he is, but they're not impressive results. Blah blah "plays loads of minutes" like, we'll seriously consider maybe six or seven guys for the Norris, but like 62 play "top minutes." Carlson doesn't suck or anything, but if you honestly think he's in any way comparable to Karlsson, Doughty, Hedman, Ekman-Larsson, Subban, Giordano, Jones, etc, you're kidding yourself.

Jones and OEL have done nothing to be considered better than Carlson other than "be underrated" and play for sunbelt teams. If Carlson pulled the bambi on ice act OEL pulls seemingly every other game when getting scored on he'd have a worse rep than Mike Green. Giordano hasn't been better for a long time since he came off his high peak back when he was younger. Carlson also usually has the worst partners of pretty much all of them minus EK in Ottawa since he's good enough to carry rookies/over the hill guys guys like Djoos, Orpik, Alzner. Kempny is the first experienced mobile guy he played with in a long time and Kempny went from NHL cast off to top 4 mainstay.

The Caps won because the rest of the league had caught Mad Dallas Eakins disease and decided that all shots were equal. That someone like Brooks Orpik was better off getting a shot on net rather than passing it to Alex Ovechkin for a one timer because throwing a muffin on net is a guaranteed corsi point while the pass can be intercepted. If you watch the Caps playoff run you see 4 rounds of the caps (including John Carlson) allowing tons of 30 foot muffins on Holtby that simply gave them easily obtained change of possession while shooting half that but actually making the opposing goalies move side to side or have to track the puck through screens. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the advanced stats hysteria since not only does it provide endless entertainment a la Chayka, Eakins and Panthers Excel Bros but it also got us a cup we may not have won if other teams still played hockey instead of sportsball.

Or who knows, maybe the caps got lucky turning the 4 arguably best goalies in the NHL last year into sieves one after the other.
 
Last edited:

Sureves

Registered User
Sep 29, 2008
11,520
928
Ottawa
He’s very likely to win it this year. The NHL is very hesitant to give out more than 1 Norris to a player over his career (to say nothing about more than 2) and all the big names have already won one.

If I had to pick a defenseman to bet on at this point it would be him, easily in fact. I can’t honestly think of a competitor.
 

Machinehead

GoAwayKakko
Jan 21, 2011
141,167
109,563
NYC
A poor man's Nick Holden if you will. The type of offensive specialist who plays top ES and PK minutes and all the crucial situations for a perennially winning team. Maybe like a Shattenkirk whose coach isn't versed enough in Corscompf%& to scratch him.

When are you dropping by to erase the Caps from the Cup since their advanced stats last year were noob tier?
Solid ad teaminum. The Rangers suck so I'll just let that slide.

Models from some popular stats people predicted them winning. Sometimes samples are not what they seem. They also have a historically good powerplay capable of subverting even strength metrics.

That doesn't change the fact that Carlson couldn't shut down a laptop.

Niskanen though...
 

JasonRoseEh

Registered User
Oct 23, 2018
2,933
2,346
John Carlson should have absolutely been a nominee last year, but he shouldn't have won it. Anyone that doesn't' think he's a great defensemen didn't watch this cup run, Carlson did everything you can ask a top dman to do and he was a deadly threat on the powerplay every time he touched the puck.
 

BillNy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
477
198
Jones and OEL have done nothing to be considered better than Carlson other than "be underrated" and play for sunbelt teams. If Carlson pulled the bambi on ice act OEL pulls seemingly every other game when getting scored on he'd have a worse rep than Mike Green. Giordano hasn't been better for a long time since he came off his high peak back when he was younger. Carlson also usually has the worst partners of pretty much all of them minus EK in Ottawa since he's good enough to carry rookies/over the hill guys guys like Djoos, Orpik, Alzner. Kempny is the first experienced mobile guy he played with in a long time and Kempny went from NHL cast off to top 4 mainstay.

The Caps won because the rest of the league had caught Mad Dallas Eakins disease and decided that all shots were equal. That someone like Brooks Orpik was better off getting a shot on net rather than passing it to Alex Ovechkin for a one timer because throwing a muffin on net is a guaranteed corsi point while the pass can be intercepted. If you watch the Caps playoff run you see 4 rounds of the caps (including John Carlson) allowing tons of 30 foot muffins on Holtby that simply gave them easily obtained change of possession while shooting half that but actually making the opposing goalies move side to side or have to track the puck through screens. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the advanced stats hysteria since not only does it provide endless entertainment a la Chayka, Eakins and Panthers Excel Bros but it also got us a cup we may not have won if other teams still played hockey instead of sportsball.

Or who knows, maybe the caps got lucky turning the 4 arguably best goalies in the NHL last year into sieves one after the other.

I'm sorry but you're certifiably insane, and there are just so many things obviously wrong. (The Lightning were better than the Capitals all year and Cooper forgot how to coach? the Penguins won two Cups and Sullivan forgot how to coach?). There are so many things wrong with this. If you don't think Seth Jones and OEL are better than Carlson, you're just an idiot, and you think Columbus is a "sun belt" team. Also, for the trillionth time: Chayka is not an advanced stats guy, and never has been.
 

BillNy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
477
198
...that’s the point of the thread. It’s not just 8 games. He put up big numbers last year, was on fire through the playoffs, and is continuing it with a hot start to this season. No need for a special trophy. But he should be squarely on the Norris radar.

Last year he had a lot of points on an elite powerplay. "Play on a good powerplay" is basically how defensemen get points. Stop looking at defensemen's points.
 

JasonRoseEh

Registered User
Oct 23, 2018
2,933
2,346
Carlson sometimes goes into Johnny Qualude mode where he looks like a total stoner bro that doesn't care haha. When he is really going 100% he's pretty impressive both offensively and defensively, but those lapses tend to stick out at times
I'll agree with this lol. Sometimes I watch a game - against the Devils this year for instance - and he's on another planet.
 

Lindemann

Registered User
Apr 7, 2017
1,154
1,056
Because he’s not even the best defenseman on our team

Very good balance yes but Nisky and Orlov our are our shutdown pair
 

gtrower

Registered User
Feb 10, 2016
1,887
2,547
Last year he had a lot of points on an elite powerplay. "Play on a good powerplay" is basically how defensemen get points. Stop looking at defensemen's points.

We’ll ignore the fact that he’s killing it ES too as you seem to just not care, but I guess I’ll stop looking at points when the Norris voters stop looking at points.
 

Revelation

Registered User
Aug 15, 2016
5,298
2,963
Solid ad teaminum. The Rangers suck so I'll just let that slide.

Models from some popular stats people predicted them winning. Sometimes samples are not what they seem. They also have a historically good powerplay capable of subverting even strength metrics.

That doesn't change the fact that Carlson couldn't shut down a laptop.

Niskanen though...

I love it, you're like if the hockey macro I slapped together in my high school intro to VB class became self aware.

I'm sure most defensemen who play 25 minutes on Barry Trotz coached high performing teams year in and year out while carrying borderline NHL D as partners can't shut down a laptop. In fact I heard it's the job requirement.

Niskanen isn't even the best D on his pairing and does around 70% of the lifting Carlson does since he has a good #2 who is excellent at skating, hitting and rushing the puck complimenting him. Which would make him seem like the better player for those who watch the game through the Dallas Eakins goggles I suppose.

It's amazing how the moment shattencorsi went to a team where he'd be exposed enough to shoulder half of Carlson's daily responsibilities he fell apart completely. Must be argumentu ad asspull or something
 

WesMcCauley

Registered User
Apr 24, 2015
8,616
2,600
Is this a joke? He was 5th in Norris voting last season?

Very good player but gets a few extra points because he is on the PP with the top guys even if he is a good pp quarterback.
He also has Niskanen on his team which has been the better defensive player of the two for a number of years.

If he plays like he did last season its perfectly reasonable to have him top 10 or even top 5 in Norris voting though.
 

Machinehead

GoAwayKakko
Jan 21, 2011
141,167
109,563
NYC
I love it, you're like if the hockey macro I slapped together in my high school intro to VB class became self aware.

I'm sure most defensemen who play 25 minutes on Barry Trotz coached high performing teams year in and year out while carrying borderline NHL D as partners can't shut down a laptop. In fact I heard it's the job requirement.

Niskanen isn't even the best D on his pairing and does around 70% of the lifting Carlson does since he has a good #2 who is excellent at skating, hitting and rushing the puck complimenting him. Which would make him seem like the better player for those who watch the game through the Dallas Eakins goggles I suppose.

It's amazing how the moment shattencorsi went to a team where he'd be exposed enough to shoulder half of Carlson's daily responsibilities he fell apart completely. Must be argumentu ad asspull or something
Then why did Trotz deliberately and consistently give Niskanen the harder matchups?
 

WetcoastOrca

Registered User
Jun 3, 2011
38,141
21,935
Vancouver, BC
He should be getting more Norris votes. I think that after last years Cup win and another great year this year it won’t be possible to ignore him. He’s just a great defenseman and should be one of the top three and may win it all.
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
69,649
14,131
New Bern, NC
When Ovi shoots from one side, Kuz from the other - Carlson just needs to feed the puck. Nevermind Backstrom who can make plays on that PP and Oshie who is gonna do the dirty work. When the PP dies, his production dies.

He was tied for 6th in even strength goals with Subban. 8th in even strength points. Is that what you mean by production dying? Is being part of one of the best pp's annually a bad thing? You don't think that his participation in that isn't a factor in its quality?
 

Midnight Judges

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 10, 2010
13,488
10,038
Is this a joke? He was 5th in Norris voting last season?

Very good player but gets a few extra points because he is on the PP with the top guys even if he is a good pp quarterback.
He also has Niskanen on his team which has been the better defensive player of the two for a number of years.

If he plays like he did last season its perfectly reasonable to have him top 10 or even top 5 in Norris voting though.

He's actually not a great PP QB. But he's not the QB. That honor goes to Backstrom and Kuznetsov. Carlson is a good enough passer though, and he has a very good-to-great shot from long distance.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->