Why does Toronto only have one team ?

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GhostofKenKlee

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The only reason it hasn't happened.

The MLSE will do anything to prevent it. TO could support 2-3 teams in the GTA. You can make the argument that Buff/Hamilton are a part of the area.

There is only one reason why Toronto doesn't have a team. Maple Leafs wouldn't allow it to happen.
 

Northern Dancer

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Josetheodore said:
The MLSE will do anything to prevent it. TO could support 2-3 teams in the GTA. You can make the argument that Buff/Hamilton are a part of the area.

There is only one reason why Toronto doesn't have a team. Maple Leafs wouldn't allow it to happen.

wrong, at the right price they would most definately allow teams in, the price would be prohibitive though, nothing wrong with that, you have to protect your market. remember what the Kings got for Anahiem all those years ago ? that would be the down-payment.
 

Wetcoaster

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Stats Can population by CMA (Census Metropitan Area). Census Metropolitan area: a very large urban area (known as the urban core) together with adjacent urban and rural areas that have a high degree of social and economic integration with the urban core.

For 2005:

Toronto 5,304,100
Montréal 3,635,700
Vancouver 2,208.300
Ottawa–Gatineau 1,148,800
Calgary 1,060,300
Edmonton 1,016,000
Quebec 717,600
Hamilton 714,900
Winnipeg 706,900

A population of 1 million seems to be the base minimum. Another factor would be economic performance and the corporate sector. Quebec, Hamilton and Winnipeg do not make it.

If you look at the cities the NHL has expanded/relocated into in the US, they have the population and the economic base the NHL is looking for. Of all the pro sports the NHL targets the corporate sector and has the highest per capita income of bum in the seat which is why the NHL does well on in arena sponsorship.

2004 numbers ranking the top performing cities in the US:
http://bestcities.milkeninstitute.org/

Phoenix has a population of 3,593,408 and ranks number three in economic performance in the US.

Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill NC has a population of 1,294,691 and ranks number 34.

Columbus has a population of 1,597,271 and ranks number 138.

Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater has a population of 2,531,908 and ranks number 12.

Denver has a population of 2,248,014 and ranks number 130

Nashville has a population of 1,288,051 and ranks number 30.

San Jose has a population of 1,678,421 and ranks number 147.

Minneapolis-St. Paul has a population of 3,083,637 and ranks number 82.

Quebec City, Hamilton and Winnipeg would not be a blip on the radar screen compared to these cities and there are a number of other US cities on the NHL wish-list long before them such as Houston, Kansas City or even Las Vegas.
 

Wetcoaster

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Josetheodore said:
The MLSE will do anything to prevent it. TO could support 2-3 teams in the GTA. You can make the argument that Buff/Hamilton are a part of the area.

There is only one reason why Toronto doesn't have a team. Maple Leafs wouldn't allow it to happen.
And what if the new team grabbed off a Stanley Cup (or ejust made the Cup Finals) before the Leafs? :eek:
 

Puckclektr

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Jul 15, 2004
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Wetcoaster said:
Stats Can population by CMA (Census Metropitan Area). Census Metropolitan area: a very large urban area (known as the urban core) together with adjacent urban and rural areas that have a high degree of social and economic integration with the urban core.

For 2005:

Toronto 5,304,100
Montréal 3,635,700
Vancouver 2,208.300
Ottawa–Gatineau 1,148,800
Calgary 1,060,300
Edmonton 1,016,000
Quebec 717,600
Hamilton 714,900
Winnipeg 706,900

A population of 1 million seems to be the base minimum. Another factor would be economic performance and the corporate sector. Quebec, Hamilton and Winnipeg do not make it.

If you look at the cities the NHL has expanded/relocated into in the US, they have the population and the economic base the NHL is looking for. Of all the pro sports the NHL targets the corporate sector and has the highest per capita income of bum in the seat which is why the NHL does well on in arena sponsorship.

2004 numbers ranking the top performing cities in the US:
http://bestcities.milkeninstitute.org/

Phoenix has a population of 3,593,408 and ranks number three in economic performance in the US.

Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill NC has a population of 1,294,691 and ranks number 34.

Columbus has a population of 1,597,271 and ranks number 138.

Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater has a population of 2,531,908 and ranks number 12.

Denver has a population of 2,248,014 and ranks number 130

Nashville has a population of 1,288,051 and ranks number 30.

San Jose has a population of 1,678,421 and ranks number 147.

Minneapolis-St. Paul has a population of 3,083,637 and ranks number 82.

Quebec City, Hamilton and Winnipeg would not be a blip on the radar screen compared to these cities and there are a number of other US cities on the NHL wish-list long before them such as Houston, Kansas City or even Las Vegas.
Hamilton has way more to draw from than Edmonton and Calgary. Don't call the team Hamilton, call them Ontario and you draw from so many cities...
 

Puckclektr

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Jul 15, 2004
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Northern Dancer said:
and what is this all suppossed to mean about supporting two franchises ?
Nothing. I was responding to somebody saying Toronto is not a hockey town, but only a Leaf town.
 

Wetcoaster

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tangible_faith said:
Hamilton has way more to draw from than Edmonton and Calgary. Don't call the team Hamilton, call them Ontario and you draw from so many cities...
The point is Hamilton does not match up with the potential US expansion/relocation sites.
 

TheFinalWord

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Apr 25, 2005
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tangible_faith said:
To say Toronto is NOT a hockey market is just stupid. Toronto doesn't just support the Leafs, there are fans of all teams. When you go to a Leaf game, of course the majority are going to be Leaf fans. Toronto is easily the most popular team in the city, but there are many Leafr haters as well as fans of other teams. Out of my group of friends 2 are Leaf fans, 1 Devil fan, 2 Oilers fans, 1 Flame fan, 1 Penguins fan, 2 Habs fans and one wings fan. That is two out of 10 that are Leaf fans and we are in the suburbs. The thing is you only see Leaf fans on TV, you only hear about Leafs on TV. The city is all Leafs, because who is the media going to cater too, the 1 million Leaf fans, or the 50,000 Oiler fans, or 10,000 Devils fans. I bet at least 25 percent of the GTA is a fan of a team that isn't the Leafs.

Just because you have friends who are fans of another team, does not mean that in any way, shape or form that Toronto would support another NHL team. People in Toronto just don't support hockey teams that aren't the Leafs. They don't support the OHL, they don't support the AHL, they don't go to Junior A or Junior B games, they don't support CIAU hockey, they don't support womens hockey and they are fickle when it comes to the other major sports as well.
Canadians as a whole are hockey fans. They have teams they support and cheer for. That doesn't mean they are going to be going to enough games to support a team. The proof is in the pudding. They don't support any other hockey than the Leafs.
 

GSC2k2*

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TheFinalWord said:
Just because you have friends who are fans of another team, does not mean that in any way, shape or form that Toronto would support another NHL team. People in Toronto just don't support hockey teams that aren't the Leafs. They don't support the OHL, they don't support the AHL, they don't go to Junior A or Junior B games, they don't support CIAU hockey, they don't support womens hockey and they are fickle when it comes to the other major sports as well.
Canadians as a whole are hockey fans. They have teams they support and cheer for. That doesn't mean they are going to be going to enough games to support a team. The proof is in the pudding. They don't support any other hockey than the Leafs.
Actually, that is an eternally misquoted saying. The actual saying is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

And I agree with your point entirely.

That is all.
 

Old Hickory

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Wetcoaster said:
.

San Jose has a population of 1,678,421 and ranks number 147.

Quebec City, Hamilton and Winnipeg would not be a blip on the radar screen compared to these cities and there are a number of other US cities on the NHL wish-list long before them such as Houston, Kansas City or even Las Vegas.
Include San Francisco in San Jose's number.

San Fran is the 5th largest market in the US and is about 30 minutes away
 

kdb209

Registered User
Jan 26, 2005
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kingsjohn said:
Include San Francisco in San Jose's number.

San Fran is the 5th largest market in the US and is about 30 minutes away

The San Francisco Bay Area is the 5th largest metro area in the US, and the largest city in the Bay Area is ... San Jose.

San Jose has more population than SF (and almost 3x Oakland's)- it passed it's neighbor up north over a decade ago, and just this past year "officially" passed Detroit to become the 10th largest city in the US.

San Jose just doesn't seem to get any respect, sigh.
 

psod

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Flukeshot said:
Totally agree here, and to make it more marketable call it something other than just Mississauga, such as Peel (as in the region) to draw Brampton and Caledon citizens to identify with the team. Smack the arena as close to the city line of Brampton and Mississauga as possible and you draw from a population of about a million people and growing.

Plus it is a largely immigrational population that does not have immediate ties to the Leafs and in general is highly communal and supportive, that I think would jump on the bandwagon of a pro franchise easily.

Then again, finding any local ownership would probably be out of the question.

Good points.

Given 10-15 years a new franchise could become wildly popular. Once a new generation of fans grow up, not knowing hockey without the new team, the fan support will be there. Look at Ottawa. Before the Sens everyone supported the Leafs or the Habs. Years later, Sens fans are as rabid as those in any other Canadian city. If the Mets can enter NY and survive, a new NHL franchise could scrape up enough fans to survive in the GTA as well.
 

Puckclektr

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TheFinalWord said:
Just because you have friends who are fans of another team, does not mean that in any way, shape or form that Toronto would support another NHL team. People in Toronto just don't support hockey teams that aren't the Leafs. They don't support the OHL, they don't support the AHL, they don't go to Junior A or Junior B games, they don't support CIAU hockey, they don't support womens hockey and they are fickle when it comes to the other major sports as well.
Canadians as a whole are hockey fans. They have teams they support and cheer for. That doesn't mean they are going to be going to enough games to support a team. The proof is in the pudding. They don't support any other hockey than the Leafs.
I mentioned my friends as an example. Toronto is a Leaf town but it is a hockey town as well. How can you say that people in the GTA don't support other hockey teams. OHL-Ice Dogs, Battalion, Generals, Colts, Rangers as well as probably 20 Jr. A teams. nobody supports CIAU hockey because nobody cares about university sports. Womens hockey is too slow and most men could care less.
Even if you were right about people in the GTA not supporting OHL, Jr. etc, that doesn't mean that it won't support an NHL team. There is enough people in the market. Why would I pay $8 to watch a Jr. game, when I play pick up at that level and get to watch pick-up for free at the arena if I want. NHL is a completly different level than any other league.
I don't get how you can say that peopel in Toronto only support the Leafs.
 

GSC2k2*

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tangible_faith said:
I mentioned my friends as an example. Toronto is a Leaf town but it is a hockey town as well. How can you say that people in the GTA don't support other hockey teams. OHL-Ice Dogs, Battalion, Generals, Colts, Rangers as well as probably 20 Jr. A teams. nobody supports CIAU hockey because nobody cares about university sports. Womens hockey is too slow and most men could care less.
Even if you were right about people in the GTA not supporting OHL, Jr. etc, that doesn't mean that it won't support an NHL team. There is enough people in the market. Why would I pay $8 to watch a Jr. game, when I play pick up at that level and get to watch pick-up for free at the arena if I want. NHL is a completly different level than any other league.
I don't get how you can say that peopel in Toronto only support the Leafs.
The Marlies cannot draw flies either. Neither did the Roadrunners. AHL teams. Nor do all the teams cited in your post (not sure why you cited them, frankly).

You have no evidence to support your position. All the evidence says the city is a Leaf city.

That is all.
 

TheFinalWord

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Apr 25, 2005
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tangible_faith said:
I mentioned my friends as an example. Toronto is a Leaf town but it is a hockey town as well. How can you say that people in the GTA don't support other hockey teams. OHL-Ice Dogs, Battalion, Generals, Colts, Rangers as well as probably 20 Jr. A teams. nobody supports CIAU hockey because nobody cares about university sports. Womens hockey is too slow and most men could care less.
Even if you were right about people in the GTA not supporting OHL, Jr. etc, that doesn't mean that it won't support an NHL team. There is enough people in the market. Why would I pay $8 to watch a Jr. game, when I play pick up at that level and get to watch pick-up for free at the arena if I want. NHL is a completly different level than any other league.
I don't get how you can say that peopel in Toronto only support the Leafs.
Ice Dogs, Battalion, Generals and St. Mike's don't draw. I know this because I go to the games. If you're playing 'pick up' at the same level as Jr A players, then you must be in one hell of a game. As an example, Cogliano played Jr A last year. Is he not worth watching?

The basic fact of the matter is that Toronto does not support any hockey outside of the Leafs. You are assuming, based on no facts, that Toronto would support another NHL team. All evidence is to the contrary.
 

KrisKing*

Guest
Someone please answer my question.

If Toronto isn't a "hockey town" but is just a "Leafs town", what city would be an example of a "hockey town".

My point is, if toronto isn't a hockey town, a reasonable conclusion would be that there does not exist such a place.
 

RTWAP*

Guest
KrisKing said:
Someone please answer my question.

If Toronto isn't a "hockey town" but is just a "Leafs town", what city would be an example of a "hockey town".

My point is, if toronto isn't a hockey town, a reasonable conclusion would be that there does not exist such a place.
Uhmmm... Ottawa?

The two junior teams draw very well and seem to be doing even better since the Sens came to town. The city hosts a huge kids hockey tournament every year (400 teams I think).

The Sens may be the top of pyramid here but the base is very wide.
 

TheFinalWord

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Apr 25, 2005
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KrisKing said:
Someone please answer my question.

If Toronto isn't a "hockey town" but is just a "Leafs town", what city would be an example of a "hockey town".

My point is, if toronto isn't a hockey town, a reasonable conclusion would be that there does not exist such a place.

Toronto is a hockey town when it comes to interest in people playing the game. Toronto is not a hockey town when it comes to supporting ANY hockey that isn't the Leafs or Team Canada. IMO, you have to support more than just the NHL team to be a hockey town. And by support, I mean attend games.
 

arrbez

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Jun 2, 2004
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TheFinalWord said:
Toronto is a hockey town when it comes to interest in people playing the game. Toronto is not a hockey town when it comes to supporting ANY hockey that isn't the Leafs or Team Canada. IMO, you have to support more than just the NHL team to be a hockey town. And by support, I mean attend games.

All Lies!

I watched the Marlies In An Hour on Leafs TV once.
 

KrisKing*

Guest
Fine I give up, toronto is not a hockey town. In fact chicago is a far better hockey city because they have the blackhawks and the ahl's wolves.

I feel like i'm taking crazy pills here.
 

Pepper

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Aug 30, 2004
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To answer the question of the thread starter, it's very simple:

To limit the number of stupid trade proposals.
 

KrisKing*

Guest
arrbez said:
are you the real Kris King?

I wish i was that handsome devil.

And just for the record, i'm not from toronto and i hate the leafs.
 
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