Why does Kessel have the same rating as Malkin??

[SOLR]

I'll rephrase because I dont think you get my point.

My opinion is that a 10, a generational player, will have a track record of success that goes way back. I dont think you can become a generational player, you are either one, or if you are a late bloomer you will reach the status of an all-star max. Thats Malkin imo.

Crosby can be a 10, I dont think thats an insults to any of the greats.

 

[dafoomie]

And not giving any prospect with astronomical potential a 10 because it's an "insult" to Gretzky and Orr is just stupid. You're essentially saying that no player can ever, no matter how good they are, match Gretzky and Orr...and I say you're wrong.

I don't think any prospect should be a 10 unless they're going to be on par with Gretzky and Lemieux as generational talents and all time greats. I don't see Malkin or Kessel as potentially one of the greatest players ever to play the game. Thats what a 10 is. I think they'll both be elite forwards, hence the 9. Sakic, Forsberg, Thornton, those guys are 9's.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I don't think any prospect should be a 10 unless they're going to be on par with Gretzky and Lemieux as generational talents and all time greats. I don't see Malkin or Kessel as potentially one of the greatest players ever to play the game. Thats what a 10 is. I think they'll both be elite forwards, hence the 9. Sakic, Forsberg, Thornton, those guys are 9's.

Since Malkin came on midway through his draft year(back when it looked like the Pens were going to be landing Ovechkin and long before Crosby was a Penguin) I've been saying I think Malkin will be better than Crosby...and I still firmly believe that. It may not be a popular opinion, and their styles are definitely different(truly...the player Crosby most resembles is Gretzky and Malkin closest to Lemieux...), but I see Malkin being the better player in the NHL down the road. That is to say...in my mind they're both generational players. Generational players are supposed to be just that...the league has never had more than 2 at one time...but Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin are all, in my eyes, generational talents. I don't care for the fact Malkin wasn't dominating from birth that he doesn't have what it takes to be at Crosby's level. Watching him as he has vastly improved as a 17 year old(where he was hardly something to scoff at) to a 19 year old who was just absolutely dominating every facet of that league. The fact he can get that much better in so short of a time says just as much to me as somebody who dominates from the second they discover their love of the sport.


People have dominated from birth to draft for as long as the system has been in place...and it has proved to not mean ****. Look at the Daigles, the Bonsignores, the Falloons... Saying Crosby has his right to be a generational player because of his history is absurd. He has his right to be a generational player because he plays like a generational player, not because he was amazing as a 12 year-old.


I can't say that about Kessel...nor come even close to it. I don't think anyone here has called Kessel a 10, nor should anyone without being laughed at. Kessel has the potential to top out at a 9.

 

[dafoomie]

People have dominated from birth to draft for as long as the system has been in place...and it has proved to not mean ****. Look at the Daigles, the Bonsignores, the Falloons... Saying Crosby has his right to be a generational player because of his history is absurd. He has his right to be a generational player because he plays like a generational player, not because he was amazing as a 12 year-old.

I can't say that about Kessel...nor come even close to it. I don't think anyone here has called Kessel a 10, nor should anyone without being laughed at. Kessel has the potential to top out at a 9.

I don't really see Malkin as a 10, and I certainly don't think Kessel is, but you're right about evaluating players instead of relying on history.

Malkin will have ample opportunity to prove me wrong, but its no insult to him to "only" project him to be an elite player and not the next Lemieux. I hope they all become generational talents, the league needs them now more than ever.

 

[Til the End of Time]

Since Malkin came on midway through his draft year(back when it looked like the Pens were going to be landing Ovechkin and long before Crosby was a Penguin) I've been saying I think Malkin will be better than Crosby...and I still firmly believe that. It may not be a popular opinion, and their styles are definitely different(truly...the player Crosby most resembles is Gretzky and Malkin closest to Lemieux...), but I see Malkin being the better player in the NHL down the road. That is to say...in my mind they're both generational players. Generational players are supposed to be just that...the league has never had more than 2 at one time...but Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin are all, in my eyes, generational talents. I don't care for the fact Malkin wasn't dominating from birth that he doesn't have what it takes to be at Crosby's level. Watching him as he has vastly improved as a 17 year old(where he was hardly something to scoff at) to a 19 year old who was just absolutely dominating every facet of that league. The fact he can get that much better in so short of a time says just as much to me as somebody who dominates from the second they discover their love of the sport.


People have dominated from birth to draft for as long as the system has been in place...and it has proved to not mean ****. Look at the Daigles, the Bonsignores, the Falloons... Saying Crosby has his right to be a generational player because of his history is absurd. He has his right to be a generational player because he plays like a generational player, not because he was amazing as a 12 year-old.


I can't say that about Kessel...nor come even close to it. I don't think anyone here has called Kessel a 10, nor should anyone without being laughed at. Kessel has the potential to top out at a 9.

In what way(s) do you think Malkin will be superior to Crosby?

 

[acr*]

Since when did Pee-Wee records equate a good NHL player? Malkin wasn't a phenom until his draft year.

Like The_Eck said...his record in the RSL is better than Ovechkin.

I'm sick of posting this, but I will anyways.

Ovechkin at 17: 40 GP 8+7=15 (0.38 PPG)
Malkin at 17: 34 GP 3+9=12 (0.35 PPG)

Ovechkin at 18: 53 GP 13+10=23 (0.43 PPG)
Malkin at 18: 52 GP 12+20=32 (0.66 PPG)

Ovechkin at 19: 37 GP 13+14=27 (0.73 PPG)
Malkin at 19: 46 GP 21+26=47 (1.02 PPG)

I guess Ovechkin isn't a generational talent either because he obviously wasn't setting any records.

Come on...Ovechkin was carrying an NHL team on his back, not playing in the Siberian Gulag League. You can't compare the two.

 

[Wally112pac]

So keep bugging your eyes, and seeing flying cows. I actually enjoy the comments.

You've read too much into Kessel's hype.

He could be great but not 10 top of all time great.

Crosby has that chance.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

3 Things I say..
Strength. Crosby is amazingly strong on the puck for a guy his size...but so is Malkin...with 5 inches advantage. He uses it to his advantage. Malkin can park in front of the net any time he wants...few players are going to be able to move him.
Defense. Crosby is alright defensively, nothing real special...Malkin is a beast on D.
Toughness. Crosby will hit, Malkin will actually send the players backwards.

None of which are going to make him a markedly better offensive player than Crosby(or better for that matter), but better all-around.


Crosby will be, at least, equal to Malkin in offense...I expect Crosby to outscore Malkin on most occasions...but Malkin to be just a tad better overall. He just has that extra dimension. Crosby isn't a slouch, but Malkin could have a Selke or 2 coming his way.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Come on...Ovechkin was carrying an NHL team on his back, not playing in the Siberian Gulag League. You can't compare the two.

Ummm...they were both playing in the RSL. Ovechkin was one of the oldest players in his draft year, Malkin one of the youngest.

Both 2004 draftees(remember, September 15, 1985 is the first date of eligibility)
Alexander Ovechkin: Born September 17, 1985
Evgeni Malkin: Born July 31, 1986


Ovechkin had an extra year of development on Malkin, which is why it's Malkin @ 17 and Ovechkin @ 17 instead of 2002-03.

 

[Til the End of Time]

3 Things I say..
Strength. Crosby is amazingly strong on the puck for a guy his size...but so is Malkin...with 5 inches advantage. He uses it to his advantage.
Defense. Crosby is alright defensively, nothing real special...Malkin is a beast on D.
Toughness. Crosby will hit, Malkin will actually send the players backwards.

None of which are going to make him a markedly better offensive player than Crosby(or better for that matter), but better all-around.


Crosby will be, at least, equal to Malkin in offense...I expect Crosby to outscore Malkin on most occasions...but Malkin to be just a tad better overall. He just has that extra dimension. Crosby isn't a slouch, but Malkin could have a Selke or 2 coming his way.

Fair enough. I think the thing that separates Crosby is the fact that he's been a winner everywhere he's played.

I don't know if Malkin has that same drive.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You asked me how many times I've seen Malkin-how many times have you seen Kessel? I don't think you have a very good handle on his skating ability at all.

I saw enough of Kessel to know he isn't as good a skater as Crosby.

You can't tell me Kessel can stop on a dime, change directions, and is as strong on his skates as Crosby. It simply isn't true, no matter how much you want to claim it is.

Crosby's balance alone is ridiculous. It is big part of what makes him so special. His core is much, much stronger than Kessels.

He has been training since he was 12 or 13 years old, Kessel is a soft body. Which is why he gets knocked off the puck much more easily than Crosby.

Again, there is much more to skating ability than speed.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

No one was a bigger Kessel supporter than me. I loved the idea of him on Corsby or Malkin's wing, but that was because his biggest questions would matter less there. I certainly thought that he could put up big numbers together there and his questions about selfish play and perhaps average defensive play would matter much less. In Boston would he be playing center? There is where things become more iffy with him in my opinion. Also in Boston he will not have Crosby or Malkin setting him up, though he could have Bergeron. I still see that as a step down though.

As for comparisons, it is ridiculous to the extreme to have Kessel and Malkin rated the same. Kessel is much more of a risky pick than Malkin. Malkin is as sure a thing as you can get. He has done it on every stage but the NHL and dominated. He outplayed Ovechkin. He does things with the puck that few ever did. Have you all not watched that video of him? He is almost assuredly a Croby/Ovechkin type player. I loved the idea of Kessel on the wing for the Pens, but make no mistake, he is a step down from those players as was everyone else in this draft.

If Malkin were in this draft does anyone doubt where he would have been picked?

 

[The_Eck]

I compare Malkin to a sergei federov but with a higher upside on the offensive end.

 

[acr*]

No one was a bigger Kessel supporter than me. I loved the idea of him on Corsby or Malkin's wing, but that was because his biggest questions would matter less there. I certainly thought that he could put up big numbers together there and his questions about selfish play and perhaps average defensive play would matter much less. In Boston would he be playing center? There is where things become more iffy with him in my opinion. Also in Boston he will not have Crosby or Malkin setting him up, though he could have Bergeron. I still see that as a step down though.

As for comparisons, it is ridiculous to the extreme to have Kessel and Malkin rated the same. Kessel is much more of a risky pick than Malkin. Malkin is as sure a thing as you can get. He has done it on every stage but the NHL and dominated. He outplayed Ovechkin. He does things with the puck that few ever did. Have you all not watched that video of him? He is almost assuredly a Croby/Ovechkin type player. I loved the idea of Kessel on the wing for the Pens, but make no mistake, he is a step down from those players as was everyone else in this draft.

If Malkin were in this draft does anyone doubt where he would have been picked?

A line of Sturm-Bergeron-Kessel is tailor made for the "New" NHL.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Malkin is not a generational talent.

Then how do you explain...this!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVaFG7x7qg8&search=malkin

God I love posting that reel.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Fair enough. I think the thing that separates Crosby is the fact that he's been a winner everywhere he's played.

I don't know if Malkin has that same drive.

I think that the (loose . . .very loose) comparisons that he used above define it well. Crosby is more like Gretzky as far as his game goes and TG was not the first to use the name Mario in the same breath as Malkin. His game does bring those comparisons to mind. And several writers at the Olympics and others elsewhere have made the comparison.

So I would say, if Malkin does indeed hit his stride, how could you say either was 'better'? They bring vastly different things to the table that they do best. Comparing players with games, strengths and skill sets that different is ofter a fruitless exercise. Right now though Crosby has done it at the NHL level Malkin has not. So that is a very important 'if' in comparing the two. If Malkin does indeed bring a game many think that he has, then I am not sure that you can compare them.

As for that 'drive' and 'winner' thing, I have noticed that too. He certainly was not a 'winner' this past year, or at least the team was not. But he has this knack of raising his game when the games are biggest. Or if you piss him off (ie, see Philly Flyers and knocking out teeth). I do see that serious intense quality with Malkin as well. I do not think that we are going to have a ton of 'wasn't what Malkin said funny' threads next year like we had with Ovechkin this year. But to be honest that suits me just fine.

 

[Mr.Brownov*]

No one was a bigger Kessel supporter than me. I loved the idea of him on Corsby or Malkin's wing, but that was because his biggest questions would matter less there. I certainly thought that he could put up big numbers together there and his questions about selfish play and perhaps average defensive play would matter much less. In Boston would he be playing center? There is where things become more iffy with him in my opinion. Also in Boston he will not have Crosby or Malkin setting him up, though he could have Bergeron. I still see that as a step down though.

As for comparisons, it is ridiculous to the extreme to have Kessel and Malkin rated the same. Kessel is much more of a risky pick than Malkin. Malkin is as sure a thing as you can get. He has done it on every stage but the NHL and dominated. He outplayed Ovechkin. He does things with the puck that few ever did. Have you all not watched that video of him? He is almost assuredly a Croby/Ovechkin type player. I loved the idea of Kessel on the wing for the Pens, but make no mistake, he is a step down from those players as was everyone else in this draft.

If Malkin were in this draft does anyone doubt where he would have been picked?

For once, word for word I totally agree with you!

 

[Jaded-Fan]

A line of Sturm-Bergeron-Kessel is tailor made for the "New" NHL.

As would have a line with Kessel on Crosby or Malkin's wing. I said that I was a huge supporter of Kessel before the draft and remain one. He was my favorite pick for the Pens from THIS draft. However, he is far less likely to reach a Crosby or Ovechkin type level than Malkin is. It is that simple and I am surprised that it is even an issue. That is not hammering Kessel or saying e sucks or anything like that. But it is the reality.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

As would have a line with Kessel on Crosby or Malkin's wing. I said that I was a huge supporter of Kessel before the draft and remain one. He was my favorite pick for the Pens from THIS draft. However, he is far less likely to reach a Crosby or Ovechkin type level than Malkin is. It is that simple and I am surprised that it is even an issue. That is not hammering Kessel or saying e sucks or anything like that. But it is the reality.

Whether Kessel has more potential than Malkin (he doesn't) isn't the issue here. The issue is whether Kessel should have the same ranking than Malkin. Using Hockey's Future's criteria and what I know of Kessel, I think Kessel deserves his rating. Personally, I can live with Malkin staying where he is and Kessel being dropped to 8B, but I'm not going to get bent out of shape about the current rankings.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

Fair enough. I think the thing that separates Crosby is the fact that he's been a winner everywhere he's played.

I don't know if Malkin has that same drive.

Crosby does have a drive not only to win, but be the best. His off-ice training is taken very seriously by him. He worked hard all of last season. I didn't see him play a "lazy" game.

But I remember reading a story of Malkin when he was about 12 years old. He didn't tell anybody that he had a broken foot or something like that so he could play in a hockey tournament. From what I've seen of Malkin and what I've heard as well, he's no Yashin and is very involved in the game, sometimes going over the edge with his temper (trying to kick Lecavalier). He doesn't seem like the kind of player who needs a fire lit under him.

I don't think Malkin will be quite as good as Crosby. He'll probably be better defensively but I don't think he'll reach Crosby's point or goal totals. I sure hope I'm wrong though as I actually like Malkin more than Crosby in terms of style. He seems to have a pretty nasty edge to him. I can't wait until these two are on the same team. First Lemieux and Jagr, now these two.

 

[Roger's Pancreas*]

Fair enough. I think the thing that separates Crosby is the fact that he's been a winner everywhere he's played.

I don't know if Malkin has that same drive.

That might be a bit credible if Crosby led the team to anything more than a miserable bottom five finish. Yea he's only eighteen, but saying that he's been a winner everywhere he's played is bogus.

People need to pull the ***** out of their asses and just relax. Kessel has worlds of offensive talent and a weaker all around game compared to Malkin. That doesn't translate to him not having an outstanding career in the NHL by any means, and if I remember correctly that is what HF ratings are based upon-potential.

 

[Tb0ne]

They have X.5 ratings for every other number at HF's rating system, so why not 9?

Crosby 10B
Ovechkin 10B
Malkin 9.5B
Kessel 9.0B

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Whether Kessel has more potential than Malkin (he doesn't) isn't the issue here. The issue is whether Kessel should have the same ranking than Malkin. Using Hockey's Future's criteria and what I know of Kessel, I think Kessel deserves his rating. Personally, I can live with Malkin staying where he is and Kessel being dropped to 8B, but I'm not going to get bent out of shape about the current rankings.

Aren't the ratings a prediction of a player's ceiling (the number) and the likelihood of reaching that ceiling (the letter)? If so then who has the most potential (and their liklihood of reaching that potential) is indeed what this thread is about. I think that Kessel comes short on both counts, though the number, representing the ceiling, may be close. But the letter ranking? Please, Kessel with as much chance of hitting his ceiling than Malkin? No way. Not even close. For almost anyone. Hence, no way the same ranking.

 

[EroCaps]

I compare Malkin to a sergei federov but with a higher upside on the offensive end.

Malkin projects better than Federov, but not offensively.

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

They have X.5 ratings for every other number at HF's rating system, so why not 9?

Crosby 10B
Ovechkin 10B
Malkin 9.5B
Kessel 9.0B

Kessel should not have the same letter as the other guys. I think a 9 for Kessel is probably good, 8.5 or 9 but he isn't anywhere near the "safe" bet Malkin is. I'd say 9C.