Why do you think these guys never got named to Team Canada?

[Big Phil]

Denis Savard - Only Gretzky and Statsny had more points than him in the '80s. I know Canada had great Canada Cup teams but dont you think that in '84 or '87 he could have made the cut? Savard would have been dynamite against the Russians. His size was suspect but it wasnt as if he were a playoff choker either, he delivered. His point totals were too hard to ignore IMO. By '91 he was past his prime.

Adam Oates - '91 was a huge snub. Everyone knows Oates created an already very good goalscorer in Hull into an 86 goal scorer. Oates did that to everyone - hello Cam Neely. But could he have not gotten on the team in '91? '96 wouldnt have been bad either and '98 wouldnt have hurt, but other than skating what made teams leave him off?

Bernie Federko - Whether it was '81 or '84 Federko easily could have been there. He was more of a quiet player, never got noticed much, which is why many question his HHOF induction. He had the point totals year after year and I dont see how he could have made the '81 team any worse.

Ron Francis - Underrated for much of his career. I can see him missing '84 and even '91 but what about '91? By then he had won a Cup, already had a 101 point season and had been the final piece in the puzzle of a Cup win. '96 he was named to the World Cup team but was injured, but in '98 he was still more effective than a couple others on that team IMO. Trevor Linden is there but the guy that does everything right isnt?

Randy Carlyle - Probably should have never been cut from the '81 Canada Cup team. No matter what you never cut the Norris Trophy winner. Other than that only '87 may have been a year where he may have been able to crack a team

Bernie Nicholls - I know nothing jumped out at you about him but if there were a Canada Cup in '89 would he not have been named to the team? I think so. Other than that only '87 and '91 were years that he may have had a shot. He got extremely hot at the wrong time, much like a guy like Turgeon did ('89-90, '92-93). I would have invited him to a camp though nonetheless

Billy Smith - Yeah people complain about Roy and they should but what about Smith? In '81 he was named to the team but was a third stringer behind Liut and Edwards. Both good goalies, even at that time, but how do you pass up then two-time winning goalie Smith? I doubt if Smith is in net Canada loses 8-1. Then in '84 after his 4 Cups, his clutch play and already having a Vezina and Conn Smythe under his belt he doent make that team. Okay Pete Peeters, I can see. He won the Vezina a year earlier. Fuhr, sure he won the Cup that year. But Lemelin over Smith? Yeah I know after than Smith kind of went downhill but he had just been in his 5th straight finals appearance that spring

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[greatgazoo]

Look no further than Glen Sather for your answer as to why a lot of those players never played for Team Canada. Just look at how many Oilers were on the '84 Team alone. Randy Gregg for crying out loud was on that team!

The other person you have to ask is Mike Keenan. I still remember the uproar when he cut Wendel Clark in '87! Yet included a personal favorite in Dirk Graham. Dirk Graham?

Adding a player like Graham over a more skilled player shows that Keenan and Sather were interested in building the best "team" where certain players fill certain rolls, instead of choosing an all-star like lineup of simply the most skilled players.

There's only 60 mins in a game.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Look no further than Glen Sather for your answer as to why a lot of those players never played for Team Canada. Just look at how many Oilers were on the '84 Team alone. Randy Gregg for crying out loud was on that team!

The other person you have to ask is Mike Keenan. I still remember the uproar when he cut Wendel Clark in '87! Yet included a personal favorite in Dirk Graham. Dirk Graham?

Adding a player like Graham over a more skilled player shows that Keenan and Sather were interested in building the best "team" where certain players fill certain rolls, instead of choosing an all-star like lineup of simply the most skilled players.

There's only 60 mins in a game.

Dirk Graham wasn't picked for the team in 1987, that was 91. Keenan was still the Flyers coach in 87.

 

[greatgazoo]

Dirk Graham wasn't picked for the team in 1987, that was 91. Keenan was still the Flyers coach in 87.

Whatever year it was, surely you get my point because Dirk Graham certainly took the place of someone who would've been much more skilled.

Perhaps I should've said Claude Lemieux instead for '87 as another example of a role player taking the place of someone more skilled.

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

Denis Savard - Only Gretzky and Statsny had more points than him in the '80s. I know Canada had great Canada Cup teams but dont you think that in '84 or '87 he could have made the cut? Savard would have been dynamite against the Russians. His size was suspect but it wasnt as if he were a playoff choker either, he delivered. His point totals were too hard to ignore IMO. By '91 he was past his prime.

Adam Oates - '91 was a huge snub. Everyone knows Oates created an already very good goalscorer in Hull into an 86 goal scorer. Oates did that to everyone - hello Cam Neely. But could he have not gotten on the team in '91? '96 wouldnt have been bad either and '98 wouldnt have hurt, but other than skating what made teams leave him off?

Bernie Federko - Whether it was '81 or '84 Federko easily could have been there. He was more of a quiet player, never got noticed much, which is why many question his HHOF induction. He had the point totals year after year and I dont see how he could have made the '81 team any worse.

Ron Francis - Underrated for much of his career. I can see him missing '84 and even '91 but what about '91? By then he had won a Cup, already had a 101 point season and had been the final piece in the puzzle of a Cup win. '96 he was named to the World Cup team but was injured, but in '98 he was still more effective than a couple others on that team IMO. Trevor Linden is there but the guy that does everything right isnt?

Randy Carlyle - Probably should have never been cut from the '81 Canada Cup team. No matter what you never cut the Norris Trophy winner. Other than that only '87 may have been a year where he may have been able to crack a team

Bernie Nicholls - I know nothing jumped out at you about him but if there were a Canada Cup in '89 would he not have been named to the team? I think so. Other than that only '87 and '91 were years that he may have had a shot. He got extremely hot at the wrong time, much like a guy like Turgeon did ('89-90, '92-93). I would have invited him to a camp though nonetheless

Billy Smith - Yeah people complain about Roy and they should but what about Smith? In '81 he was named to the team but was a third stringer behind Liut and Edwards. Both good goalies, even at that time, but how do you pass up then two-time winning goalie Smith? I doubt if Smith is in net Canada loses 8-1. Then in '84 after his 4 Cups, his clutch play and already having a Vezina and Conn Smythe under his belt he doent make that team. Okay Pete Peeters, I can see. He won the Vezina a year earlier. Fuhr, sure he won the Cup that year. But Lemelin over Smith? Yeah I know after than Smith kind of went downhill but he had just been in his 5th straight finals appearance that spring

Phil you have to stop looking at stats. Bernie Nicholls for instance was never a player who would have been considered for any team Canada. His numbers were good enough, his game wasn't. And that goes for most of your list

 

[Big Phil]

Phil you have to stop looking at stats. Bernie Nicholls for instance was never a player who would have been considered for any team Canada. His numbers were good enough, his game wasn't. And that goes for most of your list

You saying Savard didnt have the game? Stats, yes. But his game was very comparable to what the Russians had at the time. Speed, skill, skating, passing. He would not have looked out of place on those teams.

Francis was a complete player all around. There was no flaw in his game.

Nicholls, Oates and Federko may have been lower cases but IMO they should have gotten more of a sniff.

As for Smith, he should have been in a Canadian uniform at some time.

 

[Murphy7]

Big Phil's got it right. Francis and Savard belonged. Oates and Federko were definitely on the bubble. Not so sure on Nicholls' overall game.
Didn't Smith turn down a spot as a third goalie and never get invited again?

 

[Blades of Glory]

Phil you have to stop looking at stats. Bernie Nicholls for instance was never a player who would have been considered for any team Canada. His numbers were good enough, his game wasn't. And that goes for most of your list

Nicholls and Ferderko and Carlyle are the only three on his list that fit your bill. Otherwise you have one of most offensively dynamic forwards in NHL history, arguably the greatest playmaker in NHL history outside Wayne Gretzky, one of the best two-way forwards ever, and one of the best money goaltenders ever.

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

You saying Savard didnt have the game? Stats, yes. But his game was very comparable to what the Russians had at the time. Speed, skill, skating, passing. He would not have looked out of place on those teams.

Francis was a complete player all around. There was no flaw in his game.

Nicholls, Oates and Federko may have been lower cases but IMO they should have gotten more of a sniff.

As for Smith, he should have been in a Canadian uniform at some time.

- Savard had game but right away you had Wayne, Mario, Messier...who were going to be the top 3 centers very easy and in Canada's history the 4th center is someone that had defensive prowess. This is leaving out players like Yzerman (who didn't play in 87) Stastny (who did play for Canada in 84) and Francis there were other omissions of course. Stats or whatever Savard was not good enough to play for this team period and if you lived back then you would know there was no crying over his omission.

As far as his game being much like the USSR's you have to remember in the 80's the Soviets were trying to play our tough game, add to the fact Savard could not have played wing with any impact it's npt hard to see why he was not on the team.

As for Francis look at his stats in the high powered 80's, very average and back then Francis was not known for his defense. Should he have made it?....well Canada did win a few Canada Cups so I guess the men in charge knew what they were doing. I wouldn't have cared either way.

Nicholls, Oates and Federko were never for any length of time top 3 at their position. Yes again all 3 had great NHL careers but not good enough to make the team.

Randy Carlyle had a couple good seasons but look who they had to choose from LOL not even close.

Billy Smith is a little more interesting and maybe he should have been there in 81 but considering his "game" and the way international games were called back then he would have been a penalty waiting to happen.

Considering we won 4 out of 5 Canada cups I can't complain about the choices and I do believe you let stats get in the way of logic sometimes

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

Big Phil's got it right. Francis and Savard belonged. Oates and Federko were definitely on the bubble. Not so sure on Nicholls' overall game.
Didn't Smith turn down a spot as a third goalie and never get invited again?

Over who?

Marcel Dionne? Wayne Gretzky? Mark Messier? Gilbert Perreault? Steve Yzerman? Peter Stastny? Dale Hawerchuk? Doug Gilmour? Mario Lemieux? Eric Lindros?

Those are centers competing with them for places on the team during those players careers I picked off the top of my head...there were others

Francis and Savard were at the wrong place at the wrong time

Looks like Oates was invited and turned them down in 91, that could have happened with a few others in question as well

http://www.tsn.ca/world_cup_hockey/feature.asp?fid=9318

 

[ck26]

Gotta disagree with you their about Nichols and his game. He played like a star, even superstar in his prime. He was a very smooth offensive talent. For some reason he reminds me of Spezza a bit. Federko was a very good player as well.

This is double- or maybe even triple-ironic because Spezza isn't good enough to play for Canada in a full senior tournament either.

Today, Crosby, Lecavalier, Sakic and Thornton are mortal locks to play for Canada, and even then, you don't really have a grinder to play 4th line minutes and kill penalties. Many coaches disagree, but I wouldn't go to a tournament with less than four Brind'amour-type forwards.

Essentially, Spezza is the 5th choice for 3 center slots. With Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Mark Messier, Bryan Trottier, Marcel Dionne, Gilbert Perreault, Steve Yzerman and Joe Sakic, Canada has had a logjam of Hall of Famers at center the last 25 years, which is why most of those guys never got a shot.

 

[arrbez]

Nicholls, Oates and Federko were never for any length of time top 3 at their position. Yes again all 3 had great NHL careers but not good enough to make the team.

Oates actually led the NHL in scoring over a 5 year span from 1991/92 - 1995/96. He was also an excellent defensive player and always one of the best drawmen in hockey. A very underrated player.

 

[reckoning]

well Canada did win a few Canada Cups so I guess the men in charge knew what they were doing. I wouldn't have cared either way.

Thank you. So many times I've heard an Yzerman or Savard fan talk about how unfair it was for MEAN Mike Keenan not to put them on the team, how he was just trying to break their spirit, etc.

Canada won. So maybe just maybe Keenan was right.

 

[yada]

what kind of problems did keenan and savard have? im too young to know of such things

 

[John Flyers Fan]

I don't think you can say that Messier was better than Savard in 1987. Yeah Savard wasn't anything great defensively at all, but Messier's defense was really overblown then too, and add to that that Savard was a lot better offensively. He was also at least as great a big game playoff performer as Messier at that time.

Hawerchuk already could and would play a better checking role than any of Canada's other 100 point men at that time anyway. I believe the Canada lineup should have gone Gretzky-Mario-Hawerchuk-Savard and Messier should have been the 5th man or play LW. Of course, you can switch out many of those players and Canada would still win, cause that team was so stacked.

Savard not making it in 87 has got to be a snub by Mike Keenan and we know that their problems are well documented back then. And yes I do remember reading about Savard's omission back then(I can try to pull up the articles). Heck we heard about Yzerman's ommision and he was just a little Hawerchuk - 90 point decent two way player in 87.

Keenan was still the Flyers coach in 1987. No contact with Savard. Flat out he just wasn't selected.

Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Hawerchuk, Brent Sutter and Gilmour .. the bottom four all had more grit that Savard.


As for Francis, he's gone from being underrated, to now being wildly overrated, as he slowly creeped up the all-time points list.

 

[Sens Rule]

You saying Savard didnt have the game? Stats, yes. But his game was very comparable to what the Russians had at the time. Speed, skill, skating, passing. He would not have looked out of place on those teams.

Francis was a complete player all around. There was no flaw in his game.

Nicholls, Oates and Federko may have been lower cases but IMO they should have gotten more of a sniff.

As for Smith, he should have been in a Canadian uniform at some time.

Omitting Yzerman, Savard and Francis in the 1980's looks bad now. All of them were great and could play well in vitually any role you gave them. To me it says nothing negative about these three.. it makes the Team Canada choosers look a bit bad.

Savard was so great.. Yzerman was insanely great as Keenan left him off team Canada... Francis always was a key cog on any team. he could do almost anything... there is anot a team EVER he does not improve even if he is on the 4th line.

Canada won in 1987 and 1991... so there is little hindsight negative reflection... but Yzerman, Savard, Francis were great then.. likely should have been on those teams.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Omitting Yzerman, Savard and Francis in the 1980's looks bad now. All of them were great and could play well in vitually any role you gave them. To me it says nothing negative about these three.. it makes the Team Canada choosers look a bit bad.

Savard was so great.. Yzerman was insanely great as Keenan left him off team Canada... Francis always was a key cog on any team. he could do almost anything... there is anot a team EVER he does not improve even if he is on the 4th line.

Canada won in 1987 and 1991... so there is little hindsight negative reflection... but Yzerman, Savard, Francis were great then.. likely should have been on those teams.

With Keenan winning twice, it doesn't make them look bad at all.

Francis had no reason to be picked in 1987, and in 91 would have been a bubble player.

Yzerman hadn't done enough in 1987, in 1991, he was a major snub, primarily because he wasn't much of a two way player at the time.

Savard would not have been considered in 1991, and in 87, he was coming off a year where he had some injuries. Also he wasn't going to be one of the two big offensive centers, and he wasn't a player that you woulld use on a bottom line.


If Team Canada had a big tournament this summer, it wouldn't be a shock if either Joe Thornton or Jason Spezza were left off the team. It just goes to show how tough it is to make a Team Canada at center.

 

[yada]

i doubt thornton would be left off team canada right now

my guess would be crosby, thornton, lecavalier

 

[John Flyers Fan]

i doubt thornton would be left off team canada right now

my guess would be crosby, thornton, lecavalier

If Spezza has a big playoff, and the Sharks flame out early, Spezza could surpass him. And for a checking line center, they would likely go with a more well rounded frittier player .. Brind'amour.. M. Richards, if he has a big playoff, M. Fisher ....

 

[Puck Dogg]

Savard and Francis were both centers and simply team Canada was loaded with them durin the period these guys were on their prime. Take 1987 team for example: the had Gretzky, Messier, Lemieux, Hawerchuk, Gilmour and B. Sutter. All of these guys could play center.

I could see Francis having a shot for 3-4th center position in some teams but Savard was offensive center and there were always few better than him.

 

[MadArcand]

Out of those mentioned in the OP, only Smith and maybe Francis could have a shot, and for Francis, even that'd be as 4th line center. There were better offensive centers than Savard or Oates, let alone Federko or Nicholls. And I consider Carlyle to be the worst player to win a Norris, ever.