Why do England suck?

Discussion in 'Soccer' started by Denzil, Jun 29, 2016.

  1. les Habs

    les Habs Registered User

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    I get what your'e saying and I agree with you to an extent, but I guess I prefer more context. Of those seven Finals they only won three of them and one of them was against another English side. On top of that they all went down to penalties. And as I noted, during that period Spanish side won three as well while Italian sides won two.
     
  2. Chloraflora

    Chloraflora NOLU

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    Well yeah for quite some time, the Premier League was the best (it's not anymore). As we've seen though, it doesn't translate to the best national team. We tried the best domestic coaches, didn't work, we tried some of the best foreign coaches, also didn't work. It's worth mentioning though, that no England manager has a better win% than Fabio Capello.
     
  3. East Coast Bias

    East Coast Bias Registered User

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    ......Cause they're not Wales

    Shut down the thread.
     
  4. les Habs

    les Habs Registered User

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    The Premiership wasn't the best league for quite some time.
     
  5. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

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    Having watched what Capello did with the Russian NT; I'd say that there's a pretty strong argument that the game left him behind a long long time ago.
     
  6. mmk786

    mmk786 Registered User

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    No matter how many "great" players England has or has not had they should be beating teams like Iceland.
     
  7. Jersey Fresh

    Jersey Fresh Video Et Taceo

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    As is, I don't think the squad Hodgson took to France was the best squad he could have put together, too.
     
  8. mmk786

    mmk786 Registered User

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    Well thats my point. People can talk about licensed coaches in the youth setup, tactical naivety in the EPL, too much money etc till the cows come home but they didnt lose to Iceland due to any of that. The biggest reason they lost was Hodgson.
     
  9. Live in the Now

    Live in the Now Registered User

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    Yeah. The biggest reason Wales won is Wilmots too. Given Wales players were all developed in the English league system, it's hard to think any differently when drawing comparisons between the success of England and Wales in this tournament.

    The management at this level matters WAY more than people think it does. It's the reason Chile can win two tournaments in a row with a lot of players who hardly play well for their clubs.

    If any coach at international level knows how to use decently talented players right and play them in the right positions, they're already better than 75% of the teams without factoring in how good the players are.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2016
  10. Rob

    Rob Registered User

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    Would having more players playing outside the Premier help?
     
  11. East Coast Bias

    East Coast Bias Registered User

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    People are giving way way too much credit to "world class" players.

    This thread is turned into a Premier League bashing. And not that the points raised aren't true, but it's mostly missing the point.

    Tactics have mattered. Wales wouldn't have beaten Belgium if talent was the only driver.
     
  12. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

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    And right before joining them, he didn't suck. So...

    As for the Wales argument, it's once again, forgetting a huge point I made about the english players' attitude, media exposure and work habits.
    Welsh don't have the problem of arrogance.
     
  13. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

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    To be fair, you tried just two. IMO you should hire a foreign coach who knows English football not only from the outside. Someone who has worked in the Premier League like Manuel Pellegrini, Mauricio Pochettino, Ronald Koeman.
     
  14. mmk786

    mmk786 Registered User

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    Pellegrini is terrible. Not a single player improved their performance under him for City.
     
  15. Chloraflora

    Chloraflora NOLU

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    I mentioned Bilic before, and was naturally shot down by a West Ham fan. He'd be okay. Pochettino wouldn't work purely as he's Argentinean, as much as I rate him as a coach.
     
  16. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

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    Are you arguing that coaching England made him incompetent? Or that he was over-rated by people when he took the job?
     
  17. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

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    Nah, I'm arguing that Capello slowly lost the plot, but when he signed up to coach England, he wasn't a bad coach. He actually was a very good coach.
     
  18. Rob

    Rob Registered User

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    Great video of England fans at the stadium during the game. At the end chanting "You're not fit to wear this shirt"

    I have to wonder how many of them will still be buying tickets to Russia in 2018?
     
  19. senior edler

    senior edler your alternate captain

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    England had a decent generation there with Cole, Terry, Ferdinand, Neville, Scholes, Beckham, Gerrard, Lampard, Owen, Rooney. Yeah, all those players were not from the same generation but I guess you guys get the picture.

    I've always felt though that the English national team doesn't play a cynical enough game to succeed against the better teams like Italy, Germany, Argentina, Brazil, Spain, Portugal, or France. Or even some second tier teams sometimes.

    Cynicism is key in international football.

    This year, I knew England were going to lose against Iceland. Simply knew it. Team looked really weak and confounded, and without any real identity.

    Zlatan Ibrahimovic has never been a Ballon d'Or finalist but many still consider him quite a great player.

    I personally think he's overrated though.
     
  20. Halladay

    Halladay Folesian Society

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    The team in 2002 was actually good enough to win it imo. Owen had a an early goal against Brazil but then Scholes had a bad turnover that lead to Brazil equalizing. Then Seaman allowed a Ronaldinho free kick goal which he should have stopped. After that, they seemed to try to force Lampard and Gerrard play together, when it clearly didnt work.
     
  21. Cassano

    Cassano nyeah eh

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    Not enough Arsenal players this tournament.
     
  22. Shrimper

    Shrimper Trick or ruddy treat

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    We beat Wales though? :D
     
  23. Roughneck

    Roughneck Registered User

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    England's defense, on paper anyway, may have been the best in the world with that generation, Italy would have matched them on paper and definitely surpassed them with results. England never had a goalie to match though. And the problem with the rest is that Scholes, Lampard, and Gerrard all wanted to play the same position and weren't great at playing anything else so despite some big names in their prime, putting them all on the field at the same time just wasn't very effective.
     
  24. JoakimTheSavior

    JoakimTheSavior Registered User

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    Mind boggling squad selection and in game management of set pieces.

    Jack Wilshere getting selected AND playing should tell you all you need to know.
     
  25. Shrimper

    Shrimper Trick or ruddy treat

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    As someone who follows a lower league English team, Southend United, I feel like I have seen the effects and efforts by those higher up to try to "fix" the England team and there are many things that need to happen, it is a lot more than just getting a manager in who could make things work. It would work but it goes far deeper than that.

    The biggest issue in the FA and England is that the Premier League has far too much power. I get that it is the leading league with all the star power but they have too much influence over what lower league clubs can do and what changes are made to competitions. As soon as England went out I looked back at the changes they're making to the Football League Trophy and they are a perfect microcosm of what is wrong with the English game on one level. Instead of looking at the real issues they're targeting lower league clubs and messing with their games so that their pampered reserves can get precious game time. For those not aware, the Football League Trophy is a competition open to only League One and League Two teams. League One is two steps below the Premiership. It is a fairly minor competition that teams only real care about when they start getting further. But, it is a bit of fun and offers the lower league teams a chance to play at Wembley. I've seen Southend play in the final twice, missing the third appearance as I was on holiday. Twice we played at the Millenium Stadium and once, in 2013, at Wembley. We've lost all three finals 2-0, so our record isn't great.

    It is currently a knockout competition which is regionalised to help with travel and to attempt to generate good attendances. It doesn't always work because there are only so many times you can watch Accrington play Morecambe and it is a midweek competition so not every can go due to work. Last year in the first round the average attendance was around 2100 in the North and 1650 in the South. No great, but it does at least get some people through. Now the FA have decided to bastardise it by expanding it and allowing 16 teams with category 1 status to play "B" Teams. Basically, 16 Premier League teams. They have cited this is for development of players and this will give a financial boost to teams in the lower leagues. But it won't because we don't want to see Liverpool "B" v Accrington. We don't Premier League "B" Teams in the competition that is ours to call "home". It is also a dangerous stepping stone to allowing "B" teams in the league. Originally it was supposed to be an U21 entry for that has become U23 and there is no restriction on nationality along with four overage players being allowed. Tell me, how will that help the national team?

    The reason why I am pointing this out as one of the points is that the Premier League has pushed this through as they care more about their product and aren't willing to look beyond to fix problems they see. They offered clubs extra money and the potential to win £10k a game. Whoop-de-do. For most teams that would barely cover the cost of putting a team out. Oh and they also want to end ties with a penalty shoot-out in the new group stage. Ewww. One of the big problems for bringing through new young players in the English game is that they buy players when they're young and shove them in their reserves. They stagnate and don't loan them, rather they keep them. An example is Nick Powell. He was a player for Crewe Alexandra and made his debut at 16. He was bought by Man United and hailed as a bright young thing. Like many other young players that go up to big clubs the pressures and expectations are too much at that age but the teams do little to help. They could have let him return to Crewe on loan but for 16 months he sat on the bench before being sent to Wigan on loan.

    You could say, "Ah-ha, you need "B" teams then, so they can play". No, they should be loaned out to real teams at a competitive level for them and one that will let them develop as they were against like-minded players to continue their path. Now, you can't stop teams buying players but I feel there should be more oversight and help from the governing bodies and PFA for young players on what is best for their career and with the clubs to help their development best. For every Nick Powell there is a John Bostock too. You would think that if lower league teams sold their best players and their most talented youngsters they would get a fair whack too. Nope. The Premier League saw to that as well. Football League clubs were blackmailed into accepting a new transfer system or they would see a reduction in funding. It's called the Elite Player Performance Plan. I could go into detail about this and why is risks seeing academies killed off, but this link will suffice for now..

    Funding in the grassroots game and academies is one of the best chances we have of getting more young talent through and better players in the future like Germany did after Euro 2000. There are a lot of good academies in England both in the top leagues and in non-league and with league clubs but funding isn't enough and they find it hard to fund themselves, which is why they often have to sell players to fund it sometimes. It is accepted that lower league clubs do develop players to sell, but they should have to do it to keep their academies going. The FA and Premier League could develop more complex's like St.George's Park around the country and fill them with talented staff but reducing coaching costs and training new coaches up. These regional centers would give players attached to clubs access to state of the art ares for evaluation and extra facilities to access. There should also be a drive to improve club facilities as well, so they can improve the players coming through. This of course would cost money and the Premier League won't want to part with that.

    If we had more Crewe Alexandra's and Sheffield United's we would have a lot more talented younger players coming through. This would reduce the cost of English players as it is heavily linked to supply and demand, and wouldn't Premier teams want to reduce costs of transfers? The academies are also linked to the lack of coaches and that is due to the cost of the course which costs thousands and is a price a lot of people can't afford.

    I could go on and I will reply to people's points if they want but there are many more things I could write about why the English game is dying and why those at the top are too blind and greedy to do anything but If I do any more it will be too long. I could probably type it up properly somewhere at some point, but feel free to discuss my thoughts on a few issues with the English game.
     

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