Why do England suck?

[serp]

He isn't, but he's someone who could change the overall setup - something that is needed maybe even more for long term success.

I give the whole staff that was assembled around Klinsmann when he was with Germany pretty much all the credit for all the good things that happened during his tenure. The whole staff is pretty much still with Germany and it only got better after 06 , when he left , without him. Only thing i remember good about him was he was a decent motivator but the tactical stuff that was not him.

Outside of his time with Germany he was a flop . His time with Bayern was a gigantic joke and he hasn't exactly done much with the US since taking over.

 

[N o o d l e s]

I give the whole staff that was assembled around Klinsmann when he was with Germany pretty much all the credit for all the good things that happened during his tenure. The whole staff is pretty much still with Germany and it only got better after 06 when he left without him. Only thing i remember good about him was he was a decent motivator but the tactical stuff that was not him.

Outside of his time with Germany he was a flop . His time with Bayern was a gigantic joke and he hasn't exactly done much with the US since taking over.

Hasn't done anything, unless we are celebrating a semi final Copa America and ultimately 4th place finish

 

[Chloraflora]

Hasn't done anything, unless we are celebrating a semi final Copa America and ultimately 4th place finish

To be fair, 4th place among the North and South American sides is pretty good placing for the US.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

What immediate results would they be sacrificing?

I was talking about the club level. There's always plenty of promising young English players but they don't usually seem to develop much from what they are at 20. Gerrard was a prodigy as a teenager but never really developed into a complete midfielder. They'd rather just let them do what they already can do as that works in the Premiership. In England, they'll always take the guy who can run with the ball and thinks 'goal' over a midfield strategist. An English midfielder who for example learns how to slow the game down would get ripped apart by the media.

 

[Suiteness]

When was the last time England had a manager that wasn't a walking joke????

Glenn Hoddle had potential, at least he wanted to take the team away from the hoofing route 1 crap. Too bad he was a *** crackpot.

 

[jniklast]

I give the whole staff that was assembled around Klinsmann when he was with Germany pretty much all the credit for all the good things that happened during his tenure. The whole staff is pretty much still with Germany and it only got better after 06 , when he left , without him. Only thing i remember good about him was he was a decent motivator but the tactical stuff that was not him.

Outside of his time with Germany he was a flop . His time with Bayern was a gigantic joke and he hasn't exactly done much with the US since taking over.

Yes, he benefitted from the staff around him in Germany, but he was the first man in choosing a lot of that staff and he was the one who had the power to change something and did. And you can't really hold the success after his tenure against him, the talent we have now is much better than in 06.

Now he isn't really responsible for all that talent that we have, that is due to a big overhaul of the talent development after the failures of 1998 and 2000, but he modernized things at the top level.

 

[Savant]

Pardew and Rodgers have ruled themselves out already.

 

[xavi4life]

England produces great players who all fail to be able to play together when they play for their national team. For their club teams they win trophies. There is no other country who hasn't won an international trophy in 50 years who has also produced players like they have in the last 50 years. Portugal's the only comparable I suppose, but they had a long period where they didn't produce much of anything.

It's the culture of national team coaching and the idea that the most talented players can be thrown out there with no regards as to how they will play.

I disagree on a lot of this.

1) Great players? Who was the last English player to be considered worlds best or up for a balon d'or? The only great English player who could play for a top club (Barcelona, Bayern, Madrid, Juve) is probably Wayne Rooney from 5 years ago.

2) They won trophies for their clubs because there's a lot of foreign players that make it happen. If anything, the English players support the foreign talent in the BPL.

3) England's playing identity? What is it? What are they playing at? What are they trying to do on the pitch? Just by throwing decent players on the team doesn't make them any good. National teams with a long term plan, tactical AND technical ability who are well coached and can use their strengths to their advantage and try to overcome their deficiencies (ICELAND) win. The English are ****ing clueless and they need a system in place that can be implemented from the youth programs all the way up to the pros like the German, Spanish, Italians and French national teams.

 

[Live in the Now]

I disagree on a lot of this.

1) Great players? Who was the last English player to be considered worlds best or up for a balon d'or? The only great English player who could play for a top club (Barcelona, Bayern, Madrid, Juve) is probably Wayne Rooney from 5 years ago.

2) They won trophies for their clubs because there's a lot of foreign players that make it happen. If anything, the English players support the foreign talent in the BPL.

John Terry, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Ashley Cole, Wayne Rooney, and Paul Scholes were great players who were very key components at top clubs when they were winning a lot of trophies and dominating in the CL. England didn't even qualify for Euro 2008 while this was going on. Why? Dumb coaching, like I said before. The clubs those players were at were always in CL SF's and Finals though. Even though those two Chelsea ones I mentioned didn't get to play in a final in their prime, they did a few years after it and won the CL as everyone knows.

England has produced a LOT of great players in the last 50 years. Again, it's the coaching for their national team that's the problem.

They're also between generations now in a way so when thinking rationally about the result here it shouldn't be a major shock to anyone that such a young team would face confrontation and lose.

 

[Evilo]

You can't say England has produced a lot of great players without having any Ballon d'Or winners or barely any finalist year after year.

 

[jniklast]

You can't say England has produced a lot of great players without having any Ballon d'Or winners or barely any finalist year after year.

I don't know if Ballon d'Or is a good measuring stick, it's almost exclusively offensive players competing for it and in the past 10 years it has been dominated by two players more or less. I mean how many Ballon d'Or winners and finalists did Germany have in the last 10 years?

 

[Live in the Now]

Exactly.

England has more Ballon d'Or winners than Spain btw, same as Italy.

I am talking about the entire 50 years when I say England produced lots of great players. All of whom won nothing at international level. It is the national team culture.

 

[Evilo]

I don't know if Ballon d'Or is a good measuring stick, it's almost exclusively offensive players competing for it and in the past 10 years it has been dominated by two players more or less. I mean how many Ballon d'Or winners and finalists did Germany have in the last 10 years?

But how many were finalists?
We're talking about GREAT players, sorry LOTS of great players.

That's just not true. Rooney is a good player, but even him is hard to call a world class player.
Lampard, Gerrard, Terry, good players, with also very average seasons. The overrating of the EPL made them "great players", but were they always great players? That's very debatable.

Pinning this all down on coaching is simply wrong. English players' attitude and lack of tactical awareness is certainly just as much of a reason.

 

[Live in the Now]

On the subject of the EPL overrating, hard to call it overrating when they dominated the CL when those players were in their prime. It is overrated now for sure though.

Gerrard and Lampard were finalists and Owen won it as I'm sure you know.

Gerrard also won UEFA club footballer of the year. Great players lead their teams to CL wins even when they are not on the best team. Until the last five years anyway.

You are turning the great player argument into they never had the best player argument. As far as that goes the two best players in the world will never have won an international trophy of any worth, so what does that show? The same thing about having **** coaches. Nobody would dare say the players either of them played with were tactically unaware.

 

[jniklast]

But how many were finalists?
We're talking about GREAT players, sorry LOTS of great players.

That's just not true. Rooney is a good player, but even him is hard to call a world class player.
Lampard, Gerrard, Terry, good players, with also very average seasons. The overrating of the EPL made them "great players", but were they always great players? That's very debatable.

Pinning this all down on coaching is simply wrong. English players' attitude and lack of tactical awareness is certainly just as much of a reason.

I agree with all your points, I just wouldn't use the Ballon d'Or as the measurement.

 

[Evilo]

On the subject of the EPL overrating, hard to call it overrating when they dominated the CL when those players were in their prime. It is overrated now for sure though.

Oh come on now.
Who "dominated" the CL in that group? Gerrard for one half of a final (where he was great, no doubt)?
Rooney never dominated anything in the CL. And as someone pointed out, with a group of foreigners around him, otherwise no win.
Same with Lampard and Terry. Never won anything without a big help from foreigners.
They were good players on those squad, but hardly the main reason they won.

Again, you can't pin that solely on coaching. That'd be a big mistake.

When you had Capello, was it down to coaching as well? You can't call him incompetant, surely?

 

[Eisen]

Yes, he benefitted from the staff around him in Germany, but he was the first man in choosing a lot of that staff and he was the one who had the power to change something and did. And you can't really hold the success after his tenure against him, the talent we have now is much better than in 06.

Now he isn't really responsible for all that talent that we have, that is due to a big overhaul of the talent development after the failures of 1998 and 2000, but he modernized things at the top level.

The increase in talent is hardly Klinsmann's doing but the work of youth academies, which play a big role after the early 2000s disasters.

 

[jniklast]

The increase in talent is hardly Klinsmann's doing but the work of youth academies, which play a big role after the early 2000s disasters.

Yes, that's what I said. But he changed a few old structures at the top level that helped.

 

[Live in the Now]

Oh come on now.
Who "dominated" the CL in that group? Gerrard for one half of a final (where he was great, no doubt)?

He was also by far the best player on that team at that time.

Rooney never dominated anything in the CL. And as someone pointed out, with a group of foreigners around him, otherwise no win.

I don't like to defend the fat oaf, but this is the lineup from when they won the CL.


GK 1 Netherlands Edwin van der Sar
RB 6 England Wes Brown
CB 5 England Rio Ferdinand (c)
CB 15 Serbia Nemanja Vidić
LB 3 France Patrice Evra
RM 4 England Owen Hargreaves
CM 18 England Paul Scholes
CM 16 England Michael Carrick
LM 7 Portugal Cristiano Ronaldo
CF 10 England Wayne Rooney
CF 32 Argentina Carlos Tevez

There is an awful lot of England in that lineup. Why are they able to win that and never win international knockout games?

Same with Lampard and Terry. Never won anything without a big help from foreigners. They were good players on those squad, but hardly the main reason they won.

They were better than good. Of course, no player at club level wins anything without foreigners.

When you had Capello, was it down to coaching as well? You can't call him incompetant, surely?

First this makes it seem like I'm an England fan when I don't care one bit about England. I don't care about any national team other than the US even though my ancestry is mostly German, Irish, and Scottish. I just don't care.

Capello wasn't incompetent at all, but some of his team selections were extremely odd. Heskey as starting striker and Gerrard as left midfielder are the kinds of things that it seems like only the coaches of England NT try to do and it seems like this happens all the time. I also thought it was possible they'd have a good tournament in 2012, but he resigned so we'll never know.

 

[Ceremony]

GK 1 Netherlands Edwin van der Sar
RB 6 England Wes Brown
CB 5 England Rio Ferdinand (c)
CB 15 Serbia Nemanja Vidić
LB 3 France Patrice Evra
RM 4 England Owen Hargreaves
CM 18 England Paul Scholes
CM 16 England Michael Carrick
LM 7 Portugal Cristiano Ronaldo
CF 10 England Wayne Rooney
CF 32 Argentina Carlos Tevez

There is an awful lot of England in that lineup. Why are they able to win that and never win international knockout games?

Because they were managed by someone competent. Wes Brown winning a Champions League ffs

 

[Evilo]

GK 1 Netherlands Edwin van der Sar
RB 6 England Wes Brown
CB 5 England Rio Ferdinand (c)
CB 15 Serbia Nemanja Vidić
LB 3 France Patrice Evra
RM 4 England Owen Hargreaves
CM 18 England Paul Scholes
CM 16 England Michael Carrick
LM 7 Portugal Cristiano Ronaldo
CF 10 England Wayne Rooney
CF 32 Argentina Carlos Tevez

Rooney is supposed to be the key player here? He was probably 5th or 6th best. Maybe even further than that.

 

[Suiteness]

GK 1 Netherlands Edwin van der Sar
RB 6 England Wes Brown
CB 5 England Rio Ferdinand (c)
CB 15 Serbia Nemanja Vidić
LB 3 France Patrice Evra
RM 4 England Owen Hargreaves
CM 18 England Paul Scholes
CM 16 England Michael Carrick
LM 7 Portugal Cristiano Ronaldo
CF 10 England Wayne Rooney
CF 32 Argentina Carlos Tevez

There is an awful lot of England in that lineup. Why are they able to win that and never win international knockout games?

Non English goalkeeper for starters, that is huge. CR7 and Tevez are better players than pretty much all England has produced in the past, oh, 60 years?

 

[les Habs]

On the subject of the EPL overrating, hard to call it overrating when they dominated the CL when those players were in their prime. It is overrated now for sure though.

Gerrard and Lampard were finalists and Owen won it as I'm sure you know.

Gerrard also won UEFA club footballer of the year. Great players lead their teams to CL wins even when they are not on the best team. Until the last five years anyway.

You are turning the great player argument into they never had the best player argument. As far as that goes the two best players in the world will never have won an international trophy of any worth, so what does that show? The same thing about having **** coaches. Nobody would dare say the players either of them played with were tactically unaware.

Define dominated though? The PL has only won 3 of the last how many CLs and in some cases I think they were somewhat fortunate. I still say that if Pep had started with Barça a season sooner there's no way that United would have won that CL tie and thus wouldn't have been in the Final. Whether Barça beat Chelsea back then is another story, but I'd bet a small fortune that United don't go through that tie. Anyway, during that period where those three CLs were won, two were won by Italian sides and three by Spanish sides.

 

[Live in the Now]

Rooney is supposed to be the key player here? He was probably 5th or 6th best. Maybe even further than that.

I said Rooney was THE key player? Most CL winners don't win with passengers especially as strikers. Even though he was fifth or sixth best he was also England's fifth or sixth best player. But as said already, there are a lot of English players there on a team that won the best club competition yet they couldn't even qualify for Euro 2008. Any explanation as for why they could play great in the CL and not do that?

Define dominated though? The PL has only won 3 of the last how many CLs and in some cases I think they were somewhat fortunate. I still say that if Pep had started with Barça a season sooner there's no way that United would have won that CL tie and thus wouldn't have been in the Final. Whether Barça beat Chelsea back then is another story, but I'd bet a small fortune that United don't go through that tie. Anyway, during that period where those three CLs were won, two were won by Italian sides and three by Spanish sides.

They were in seven of eight finals which hasn't been replicated in quite a long time. Some of those especially post 2008 were quite fortunate, but in the 2005-2008 seasons I don't think it's unfair to say they dominated.

Non English goalkeeper for starters, that is huge. CR7 and Tevez are better players than pretty much all England has produced in the past, oh, 60 years?

That's funny. Tevez was massively overrated because he played in England and if you don't know any English players in history better than him it would appear you have a lot of football watching to do in your free time.

 

[Evilo]

I said Rooney was THE key player? Most CL winners don't win with passengers especially as strikers. Even though he was fifth or sixth best he was also England's fifth or sixth best player. But as said already, there are a lot of English players there on a team that won the best club competition yet they couldn't even qualify for Euro 2008. Any explanation as for why they could play great in the CL and not do that?

Well you said many EPL players dominated the CL and then went on to nominate Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard and Terry.
And then talked about that United team. We all know why you didn't pick the Chelsea team, they didn't dominate anyone.

Well that United team was hardly a testimony of Rooney dominating the CL. He was a passenger. Out of the 5 best players on the team, the players without which this team would have never won the CL, 4 were foreigners (Vidic, VdS, Tevez and obviously Ronaldo).

When Bayern wins the CL, many of their top players are german (Neuer, Muller, etc...).
When Barca wins the CL, many of their top players are spanish (Xavi, Iniesta, Pique, etc...).
When Juventus reaches the CL final, many of their top players are italians...

And I can go on.