Why did Winnipeg build the MTS Centre to only 15,015 seats?

[Buck Aki Berg]

And in 1994 when the building of Scotiabank Place commenced, what was Ottawa's reasoning for building a 19,153 seat arena? Currently the 7th largest in the NHL.

Because we had the hockey team in our pocket; it wasn't a case of let's-build-an-arena-and-hope-a-hockey-team-shows-up.

Doesn't make what they built and where they built it any less stupid, but there is some reasoning for it.

...if I recall correctly, the original plans for that thing were to hold 22,500, but got scaled back to 18,500. I think they went up to 19,153 around 2002-2003, when on-ice success started creating a new level of demand for tickets, and is it ever backfiring now...

 

[cbcwpg]

"Supply and Demand"

Thats why the arena is 15,015. TNSE did the studies and based on historical demand and the size of the Winnipeg and surrounding market ( the supply ), 15,015 was the best number. But here is the kicker.... the only reason this works is because the owner of the team also owns the building ( I have lost count as to how many times I've explained this to people ).

If the only revenue that a hockey team in Winnipeg had was gate receipts and revenue generated on game nights ( like Edmonton and that's why they need a bigger building ) then there is NO WAY this would fly. But TNSE is interested in how much revenue TNSE as a whole generates, not just a hockey team. Example: in May, Elton John is coming here and playing the MTS Centre. It will be sold out with most of the tickets going for $165. TNSE gets the revenue from that concert, and hence the team also gets that revenue. Its all one pile of money. If the NHL team was to lose a few bucks one season, all the other events more than make up for it.

Back to the building... It is estimated that the extra 3,000 seats to bring it up to 18,000 would have potentially made $4M per season because these extra seats are your cheap seats. TNSE just finished building a multiplex hockey facility for rentals and adult leagues etc. They estimate that facility will make $4M per year. So to TNSE its a wash.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

Because we had the hockey team in our pocket; it wasn't a case of let's-build-an-arena-and-hope-a-hockey-team-shows-up.

Doesn't make what they built and where they built it any less stupid, but there is some reasoning for it.

...if I recall correctly, the original plans for that thing were to hold 22,500, but got scaled back to 18,500. I think they went up to 19,153 around 2002-2003, when on-ice success started creating a new level of demand for tickets, and is it ever backfiring now...

First i would not say its ever backfiring now yes tickets are down a bit but its not as bad as some are making it out to be.As for the original plans yes the plans was for a 22.000 seat arena plus a hotel built in to the rink.

 

[CaptHowdy]

The majority of revenue comes from the lower bowl seats anyway. Those missing 3k would all be cheap seats. As mentioned, if the difference allows for higher ticket prices, it might actually boost revenue.

I agree with you and so does Don Cherry. The price point of the last bunch of rows at an arena is minimal so not worth any expansion, or worrying about.

Plus Winnipeg needs to increase demand to drive up season tix, minipacks etc. If you can't just walk up to the gate five minutes before gameday all the time and get a seat, people will plan better to go to games n make an evening out of it.

 

[jamwires]

The 15,015 capacity of the MTSC was VERY calculated, just like everything TNSE does. They're a very smart ownership group. The building cannot and will not be expanded, as stated by Mark Chipman many times. The cost of adding 3000 cheap seats in the rafters makes no sense.

As for Ottawa, this year was a rough one, but still you guys are averaging what? 17,000? Maybe slightly low by Canadian standards, but not by NHL standards at all. All SBP needs is an injection of fan energy.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

What's the corporate support in Winnipeg like? Do you have a lot of successful local corporations that can get linked up with the team in some way? You need that more than just about anything, they buy boxes, they give good (i.e. expensive) tickets to their employees, they bring in out of towners, they can be sponsors of things related to the team and the broadcasts etc.

 

[peter sullivan]

i can tell you with first hand knowledge that the real answer to the question posed in this thread is:

1. budget.

2. site restriction.

they would have made it larger if they could have.

 

[kdb209]

Well is the league 32 teams or one entity? I'm not clear on that. If it's one entity than that's not contradictory to my statement. If not.......

The NHL is a group of 30 individual teams - a joint venture organized as a not-for-profit unincorporated association.

The right to a franchise is granted by the League and all teams are governed by the NHL Constitution and By-Laws - which place specific restrictions on the sale, transfer, and relocation of teams.

That is why the NHL could say - no, we don't want JB in our club - and refuse to approve Moyes' propose sale.

Courts have granted leagues (and other joint ventures) very broad rights in selecting who they allow as owners.

The restrictions on a current owner trying to re-locate are more subject to challenge on anti-trust grounds - see Davis, Al.

There must be a way to renovate the place to accomodate 2000 more seats.

The top level of the building, described as the "Roof/Catwalk" level accomodates the broadcast booths on one side of the arena hanging from the rafters. On the other side there is nothing.

http://www.mtscentre.ca/tour/tour1.php

It should be possible to build a fourth tier of seating up there of perhaps 8 rows or so along the ends of the arena and the side opposite the broadcast booths.

Mark Chipman disagrees with you.

 

[King Woodballs]

Yes the arena can be expanded
All it takes is money

To spend the money to get 2-3-4 thousand extra seats to get back a very minimal gain (if any) doesnt make great business sense.... Especially when they make noat loads on everything else they are in... So the lack of seats is essentially a wash

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

As for Ottawa, this year was a rough one, but still you guys are averaging what? 17,000?

18,291 or 98.9% capacity

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

 

[Ignoramus*]

It would make sense for a 15000-seat arena in a US market, if this was a US market we're talking about where it would be the third or fourth pro franchise team in the entire state/province.

Manitoba/Winnipeg A) is Canadian and b) only has 1 pro franchise team in the area.


Plus, it's CANADA.





DID I MENTION CANADAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

15,000 is probably the sweet spot for an NHL rink in Winnipeg. The truth is that Winnipeg would never be able to sell out an 18,000 seat arena on a consistent basis. I think people forget how horrible Winnipeg Jets attendance was. In their entire NHL history they never once averaged more than 13,500 people per game. (http://www.curtiswalker.com/jets/attendance.aspx).

We should also remember that Maple Leaf Gardens only held around 15,500 and that didn't hurt the Leafs any, did it? MTS Centre is the perfect size for Winnipeg. More NHL arenas should be around 15,000 or 16,000. There's way too much ticket inventory in some cities.

 

[danishh]

18,291 or 98.9% capacity

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

nah, they're using the 18500 as max capacity. With the 19153, it's closer to 95%, and even lower if you include the standing room spots (with standing room capacity is 20500).


As for ottawa and whether the arena is right for the market, it's an interesting question. The team has done very well filling the arena over the years, but a lot of ticket buyers are game-day purchases or single-game buyers. That's dangerous, as when the team gets bad, those ticket buyers are the first to start disappearing, and we're seeing it now. I think a smaller arena would mean more STH and flex-pack owners, which would have given the team a bit more financial certainty.

 

[Butch 19]

money talks.

Obviously, not every time.

you can't ban the guy from bidding just because you don't like him

This happens every day in the business world.

 

[peter sullivan]

i can tell you guys a secret.....MTS doesnt really have 15 015 seats....i counted them.....its closer to 14 800.

thats the truth.

 

[Potrzebie]

Well is the league 32 teams or one entity? I'm not clear on that. If it's one entity than that's not contradictory to my statement. If not.......

Anyways I knew that.

It's neither. I count 30 teams.

 

[cbcwpg]

i can tell you guys a secret.....MTS doesnt really have 15 015 seats....i counted them.....its closer to 14 800.

thats the truth.

Are you sure you counted every section. Looks like you missed one. Go back and count again.


http://www.mtscentre.ca/tour/tour2.php

The upper bowl seats expand MTS Centre's capacity to just over 15,000 for hockey and 17,000 for a centre-stage concert. The upper concourse is open when required to accomodate ticket holders for large concerts, playoff hockey and special events. It is totally self-contained with enough concession stands, mobile food carts and washrooms to service 6,150 patrons when the upper bowl is sold out. The entertainment centre is equipped with a unique curtaining system which allows it to be scaled down to 8,812 seats for Moose hockey and for other occasions when the upper bowl is not in use.

 

[Potrzebie]

Doesn't really matter what any of us think. The guy who has final say thinks it's just fine.

"There's never been any doubt about the passion of the fans, people, in Winnipeg for NHL hockey," said Bettman. "I know there were a lot of people who weren't happy when the Jets left. I wasn't happy when the Jets left. So it's always been a good hockey market. Finally they have an arena that's up to NHL standards."

"You're going to have a very intimate building that can generate substantially, not completely, but substantially all of the revenues that a slightly larger building could generate," said Bettman. "So I don't think people need to get hung up over a thousand seats."

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=326714

 

[peter sullivan]

Are you sure you counted every section. Looks like you missed one. Go back and count again.


http://www.mtscentre.ca/tour/tour2.php

The upper bowl seats expand MTS Centre's capacity to just over 15,000 for hockey and 17,000 for a centre-stage concert. The upper concourse is open when required to accomodate ticket holders for large concerts, playoff hockey and special events. It is totally self-contained with enough concession stands, mobile food carts and washrooms to service 6,150 patrons when the upper bowl is sold out. The entertainment centre is equipped with a unique curtaining system which allows it to be scaled down to 8,812 seats for Moose hockey and for other occasions when the upper bowl is not in use.

would you believe me if i told you that i actually created those drawings

15000 is a psychological barrier.

 

[cbcwpg]

would you believe me if i told you that i actually created those drawings

15000 is a psychological barrier.

I don't doubt you. All I know is I will have 2 of those seats as STs when the time comes.

Number of seats in a building is a stat you almost have to take on faith. I mean really, who goes to an empty arena and goes 1,2,3,4, and so on.

 

[pucka lucka]

would you believe me if i told you that i actually created those drawings

15000 is a psychological barrier.

Ok, I'll believe you created the drawings, but I will not believe you counted all the seats.

 

[peter sullivan]

i may have had the help of a computer....

 

[pucka lucka]

i may have had the help of a computer....

I bet you had the help of a computer for those drawing as well.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

nah, they're using the 18500 as max capacity. With the 19153, it's closer to 95%, and even lower if you include the standing room spots (with standing room capacity is 20500).


As for ottawa and whether the arena is right for the market, it's an interesting question. The team has done very well filling the arena over the years, but a lot of ticket buyers are game-day purchases or single-game buyers. That's dangerous, as when the team gets bad, those ticket buyers are the first to start disappearing, and we're seeing it now. I think a smaller arena would mean more STH and flex-pack owners, which would have given the team a bit more financial certainty.

A smaller arena would likely have meant less profits from concerts and other events.If the senators were the only thing going on there then you say a smaller arena may make sense but with so many events going on as i said a smaller arena may not have worked out good for other events.

 

[Pure West]

As has already said, this was an arena not built with the NHL in mind.

In addition, this was a mostly privately-financed endeavour (~2/3rds privately financed IIRC) so therefore TNSE aren't really gonna build extra seats and jeopardize their whole business model with nothing but a pipe dream of the NHL returning 5-10 years down the road. Its easy to say build it bigger when you don't have your own money on the line.

 

[AtomBlaster]

A lot of you guys talking economics here. Especially the 'limit the supply so you can jack up the price' idea. Have you ever heard of elasticity? Because it may surprise you, but the hockey-going Winnipegger does not have an unlimited supply of money. And when tickets hit Toronto levels, the MTS Centre will be empty.

Even if they charged Toronto prices for the tickets, do you think they'd be making enough money to play to the cap and turn a profit? They'd probably play to the floor, and stock the roster with aging journeymen, inexperienced rookies, and bubble players. Now you're paying some of the highest prices in the league to watch a team that has no chance of making the playoffs. How long do you think that will last before Winnipeggers can't afford it? Old Winnipeg Arena wasn't full most nights, because the Jets were a disgrace for half their time in the league.

You know the avg attendance in the old barn was between 12k to 13k. That was with approximately 4000 crappy seats where you had to watch the game on tv because rafters were in your face.