Why did Winnipeg build the MTS Centre to only 15,015 seats?

[ronnyweed]

only 15000 cuz they only want to triple phoenix or atlantas attendance, anything beyond that is just kicking them when they are down

 

[1989]

you honestly think that the NHL can prevent a person from bidding because they don't like him? didn't know the free market doesn't exist in the NHL

Doesn't matter because his bid would have to be astronomically enticing to get them to even take a look.. Just because he might have the highest bid does not mean the NHL is entitled to sell to him, it's what happened last time and they declined it and entertained other offers instead. They didn't like his business proposal and I believe the other owners had a say in not letting him in.

Basically, you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to money and corporations, especially in the NHL. It's clear you didn't pay attention to past proceedings to educate yourself either.

Money only talks to you because you don't have much - in the big leagues where everybody has money, what's another billionaire owner? There are plenty and there are always more.

 

[IdealisticSniper]

you honestly think that the NHL can prevent a person from bidding because they don't like him? didn't know the free market doesn't exist in the NHL

Actually any new owner does have to be approved by the board of governors and frankly they can deem any person ineligible as they seem fit. The NHL is a private business and therefore is not a free market.

 

[IdealisticSniper]

oh sorry, didn't know you were nitpicking and ignoring atlanta, florida and nashville. guess those don't count as southern markets, silly me.

Sorry I didnt specify for you the three out of what, 15ish teams that would be considered "southern markets" to most canadians.

And by the way I havent heard of any of those three you pointed out going bankrupt. In fact the only one Ive heard of is Phoenix. Oh by the way Pittsburgh was basically bankrupt as well. Maybe those canadian fans should have come down and filled up those seats.

Now go find a picture book to look at and let mommy and daddy talk.

 

[danishh]

it doesnt matter how much money he has or how much he`s willing to throw at the NHL.

the most important thing to own a sports franchise is cooperating with your fellow owners. The NHL is a 30-way partnership. You dont partner with someone unpredictable, or worse - antagonistic, because you can improve your bottom line less than 5%. The risk is too high. If 29 future partners dont trust you, you cant join their partnership, regardless of what you're offering. This isnt to say that hamilton/k-w/southern ontario is out of the question (though i think it is pretty far down the chain of potential relocation/expansion sites), it's saying that Jim Ballsillie will never own an NHL team or part of an NHL team. If southern ontario fans are serious about wanting a new team, they will move on from him and look for a new saviour, because as long as he's attached to the idea of a 2nd NHL team in the region, it will fail.



anyways, i dont even know why we're discussing hamilton in this thread. This is about winnipeg and their arena. Multiple satisfactory answers have been provided, including one directly from the ownership group in winnipeg. If you still dont understand, take some basic economics and finance courses or just trust the guys who are willing to put hundreds of millions of dollars behind this plan with this arena in Winnipeg.

 

[MasterDecoy]

someone fills me in quickly on the ballsville thing, didn't bother reading the 345 part thread

 

[Bobby Blowhard]

Its a pretty simple answer. So they can fill it to capacity and call it sell outs with 15K people so then canadian fans can ***** and moan about southern markets that cant even sell out when they have arenas that are 19k+ for capacity and are bringing in 16-18K on average.

Seriously. Thats exactly why.

Why would we ***** and moan once we get our franchises back? You think at that point Canada will rally until we get a team in Halifax, then Victoria? The only reason the southern franchises get a bad rap up here is because they are symbolic of the teams Canada lost, the Nordiques and the Jets. Gain those back and you wont need to listen to the "*****ing and moaning," as your asinine pie hole put it. Anyway lets not get into that.


You miss the point on the capacity of 15k vs 18k thing. The reason why you cant assume an equal amount (15k) will show up into an 18k stadium is that with the increase in space there is no urgency to buy season tickets, packages or even luxury boxes. A percentage of potential spectators, when tickets are abundant, will opt to buy single games tickets rather than lock themselves into packages. It may not account for 6k as people have thrown around but it likely accounts in the thousands and that, coupled with higher ticket prices to begin with, makes a big difference.

First, you're not getting back all that money those seats cost you to construct. And second, you're killing your season-ticket and mini-pack sales if your supply too often exceeds your demand, because people will quickly realize they don't have to take the risk of locking themselves into a ticket package if they can buy one, even a lousy one, on game day.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/hockey/mts-centre-has-nhl-capacity-78501967.html

 

[Respect Your Edler]

The majority of revenue comes from the lower bowl seats anyway. Those missing 3k would all be cheap seats. As mentioned, if the difference allows for higher ticket prices, it might actually boost revenue.

 

[IdealisticSniper]

Why would we ***** and moan once we get our franchises back? You think at that point Canada will rally until we get a team in Halifax, then Victoria? The only reason the southern franchises get a bad rap up here is because they are symbolic of the teams Canada lost, the Nordiques and the Jets. Gain those back and you wont need to listen to the "*****ing and moaning," as your asinine pie hole put it. Anyway lets not get into that.


You miss the point on the capacity of 15k vs 18k thing. The reason why you cant assume an equal amount (15k) will show up into an 18k stadium is that with the increase in space there is no urgency to buy season tickets, packages or even luxury boxes. A percentage of potential spectators, when tickets are abundant, will opt to buy single games tickets rather than lock themselves into packages. It may not account for 6k as people have thrown around but it likely accounts in the thousands and that, coupled with higher ticket prices to begin with, makes a big difference.



http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/hockey/mts-centre-has-nhl-capacity-78501967.html

Umm yeah I 100% think that even if Canada got 5 more teams there would still be plenty of Canadians "*****ing and moaning" (how this is asinine Im not sure) about teams being in non tradtional markets, IE: Those without snow most of the year.

As for the seats. So what is basically being admitted is that Winnipeg isnt a hockey hotbed. Is that correct? So if TO or Montreal left town for a long time then came back, they wouldnt sell out their stadiums regardless of the amount of seats?

Sorry I dont buy that for reasoning. I mean I understand what hes saying, and the concept, but the whole backbone of Canadian arguments towards Southern teams is that they could fill up their arena if they had a team. But the catch is thats only the case if they build arenas that hold almost a quarter less than the teams they are complaining about? Makes perfect sense.

Its selective reasoning at its finest.

 

[Bobby Blowhard]

Umm yeah I 100% think that even if Canada got 5 more teams there would still be plenty of Canadians "*****ing and moaning" (how this is asinine Im not sure) about teams being in non tradtional markets, IE: Those without snow most of the year.

As for the seats. So what is basically being admitted is that Winnipeg isnt a hockey hotbed. Is that correct? So if TO or Montreal left town for a long time then came back, they wouldnt sell out their stadiums regardless of the amount of seats?

Sorry I dont buy that for reasoning. I mean I understand what hes saying, and the concept, but the whole backbone of Canadian arguments towards Southern teams is that they could fill up their arena if they had a team. But the catch is thats only the case if they build arenas that hold almost a quarter less than the teams they are complaining about? Makes perfect sense.

Its selective reasoning at its finest.

First. No it is not admitting that Winnipeg is not a hockey hotbed. Prince George Alberta is a hockey hotbed of sorts and no one would say otherwise just because they cant pack a 10k seat stadium. Its all about scale and in Winnipeg they are just making a fair seating projection based on the scale of the city.

Second. The whole backbone to the argument is that they are more viable, not necessarily that they will pack more in. There are many different business models that aim to achieve viability. In Winnipeg's case, it is based on the notion that a smaller arena will secure a larger revenue stream. Perhaps this same model would be equally viable in Florida for example, however, Florida long ago went down the road of an 18K + stadium and cant turn back. Corporate sponsorship is higher in Canada, television revenue is higher in Canada, the cost of luxury suites is higher in canada, and merchandise sales are higher in canada. All these things along with ticket sales increase a markets 'viability.'

I think you are out of touch with the issue.

 

[redcard]

Economics is your simple answer
Dont build too big so you can keep demand higher then supply
Like previously stated 15k full is better then 18k with 9k in it

I think the question would be is 15k full better than 16-17k in an 18k arena. Because its not like Winnipeg would only sell 9k tickets in an 18k but somehow manage to sell out a 15k. But as mentioned, those extra 1-2k tickets sold would be the cheapest seats in the highest level and bring in minimal profit compared to the extra maintenance costs. Having fewer seats than the demand for tickets would raise ticket prices all throughout the arena to cover that profit gap while adding extra insurance in case an NHL team is not brought to Winnepeg.

 

[13 others]

You can't refuse to sell someone something in the free market? I didn't know that either.

The owner of the Coyotes wanted to sell the team..The NHL intervened stopping the sale and taking control of the team.

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

The owner of the Coyotes wanted to sell the team..The NHL intervened stopping the sale and taking control of the team.

Well is the league 32 teams or one entity? I'm not clear on that. If it's one entity than that's not contradictory to my statement. If not.......

Anyways I knew that.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

There must be a way to renovate the place to accomodate 2000 more seats.

The top level of the building, described as the "Roof/Catwalk" level accomodates the broadcast booths on one side of the arena hanging from the rafters. On the other side there is nothing.

http://www.mtscentre.ca/tour/tour1.php

It should be possible to build a fourth tier of seating up there of perhaps 8 rows or so along the ends of the arena and the side opposite the broadcast booths.

 

[Seanconn*]

bring em back for the 2011/2012 season, and have Selanne retire with the Jets

 

[end]

A lot of you guys talking economics here. Especially the 'limit the supply so you can jack up the price' idea. Have you ever heard of elasticity? Because it may surprise you, but the hockey-going Winnipegger does not have an unlimited supply of money. And when tickets hit Toronto levels, the MTS Centre will be empty.

Even if they charged Toronto prices for the tickets, do you think they'd be making enough money to play to the cap and turn a profit? They'd probably play to the floor, and stock the roster with aging journeymen, inexperienced rookies, and bubble players. Now you're paying some of the highest prices in the league to watch a team that has no chance of making the playoffs. How long do you think that will last before Winnipeggers can't afford it? Old Winnipeg Arena wasn't full most nights, because the Jets were a disgrace for half their time in the league.

 

[Brodie]

haha, he is always going to be a billionaire.

Every cent of his net worth is tied up in RIM stock. So unless he sells while he can, the company needs to make a drastic move to avoid being blown out of the market. Blackberry has gained a reputation as the cheapest, least trendy smartphone. And in a market where trendiness is a premium, that's bad.

 

[redcard]

A lot of you guys talking economics here. Especially the 'limit the supply so you can jack up the price' idea. Have you ever heard of elasticity? Because it may surprise you, but the hockey-going Winnipegger does not have an unlimited supply of money. And when tickets hit Toronto levels, the MTS Centre will be empty.

Even if they charged Toronto prices for the tickets, do you think they'd be making enough money to play to the cap and turn a profit? They'd probably play to the floor, and stock the roster with aging journeymen, inexperienced rookies, and bubble players. Now you're paying some of the highest prices in the league to watch a team that has no chance of making the playoffs. How long do you think that will last before Winnipeggers can't afford it? Old Winnipeg Arena wasn't full most nights, because the Jets were a disgrace for half their time in the league.

Nobody said they'd charge Toronto prices. Toronto's average ticket price last season was $117....Montreal had the second highest with $72. The league average was $51. Obviously if you charge an insane amount of money people won't buy tickets, but the fewer tickets available, the more money people will be willing to pay for a seat. Elasticity of Demand doesn't deny that, it just tells you how much more they'd be willing to pay.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

So, essentially they're saying that Winnipeg is barely more than a minor league city.

Which oddly enough would still sell more seats then many NHL cities.

 

[missinthejets]

when the nhl comes back,mark this post they will expand the mts center,book it.

how? they gonna pop the roof off and build upwards and put in a few rows of seats with terrible views??? One of the reasons the old barn never sold out was the crappy expansion seats. There's just no room where that arena is to expand it.

 

[MoreOrr]

Which oddly enough would still sell more seats then many NHL cities.

I'm not at all disputing that. But the League has its optimal objectives, and a 15,000 seat arena is the absolute minimum. It certainly would want that all NHL cities could regularly fill their arenas. And at least with cities that have the larger arenas, it's likely seen as opportunity for growth that could fill those arenas some day. But when you look at Winnipeg, 15,000 is currently the max. And TV revenues isn't a huge focus when it comes to Canadian cities; the League is focused on gaining those huge US TV revenues... whether it'll ever succeed in that, is another issue.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

When the first shovel went into the ground in April 2003 to start construction of MTSC, the Canadian dollar was worth about 68 cents US. And when blueprints were drawn up, construction companies contracted, and financing put in place in the years beforehand, it was worth even less.

There was nothing to indicate at the time that the Canadian dollar would be worth $1.03 today, and if you were to have said ten years ago when they were planning this building "Hey, let's tack on three thousand seats just in case the dollar gains fifty percent of its value and we can bring an NHL team back", you'd've been laughed out of the room.

 

[Confucius]

A smaller venue creates more demand for the seats that are available. It's why the Leafs season ticket holders keep renewing. Once they give them up they'll never get them back. If you can just get tickets anytime alot of tickets would go unsold during a team's bad years.

 

[Skobel24]

arena in hamilton seats 17,000

and each day, one of those seats crumbles into dust.

As for the MTS Center, it wasn't there intention to build an NHL capable arena. It was meant for concerts/other events. Since it was built downtown, there was little possiblity for more seating.

 

[MoreOrr]

When the first shovel went into the ground in April 2003 to start construction of MTSC, the Canadian dollar was worth about 68 cents US. And when blueprints were drawn up, construction companies contracted, and financing put in place in the years beforehand, it was worth even less.

There was nothing to indicate at the time that the Canadian dollar would be worth $1.03 today, and if you were to have said ten years ago when they were planning this building "Hey, let's tack on three thousand seats just in case the dollar gains fifty percent of its value and we can bring an NHL team back", you'd've been laughed out of the room.

And in 1994 when the building of Scotiabank Place commenced, what was Ottawa's reasoning for building a 19,153 seat arena? Currently the 7th largest in the NHL.