Why did the Red Wings trade Mike Vernon after the 97 Cup Run?

Jim MacDonald

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Hi Everyone!

I hope everyone, their families and their friends are continuing to stay safe and healthy.

I know the title of my thread might be looked at with a response of "Really, Jim, How do you not know this answer?" *self-deprecating laughter* Well....I just wanted to "cover my bases" on items I may not know.

Was it as simple as the Wings brass felt confident for Osgood to take the next step? Or were there some things on Vernon's side of things that made this the best move for all parties (i.e. I know Vernon was a free agent, with the Conn Smythe in tow was he and the Wings "far apart" as far as contract talks go? Vernon not interested in going 50/50 with Ozzie?)

Appreciate the knowledge as always gang!-Jim
 

hacksaw7

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Vernon was 34, Osgood about 25. Vernon was also small (so was Osgood...but Vernon was a true tiny 80's goalie and the game was rapidly moving towards big padded up netminders) after the 1997 Cup at his age they probably felt his value was about as high as it could get and the future would be nothing but a decline

Plus Hodson performed well when called upon in 95/96 and 96/97
 
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Doctor No

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Detroit Free Press, July 19, 1997, the day after Ken Holland was promoted to general manager in Detroit:

Detroit_Free_Press_Sat__Jul_19__1997_.jpg
 

Nerowoy nora tolad

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Vernon was 34, Osgood about 25. Vernon was also small (so was Osgood...but Vernon was a true tiny 80's goalie and the game was rapidly moving towards big padded up netminders) after the 1997 Cup at his age they probably felt his value was about as high as it could get and the future would be nothing but a decline

Plus Hodson performed well when called upon in 95/96 and 96/97
Vernon actually did a half-decent job of reinventing himself in the 90s as a hybrid, but theres only so much a 5'7 goalie can do to stay relevant in the age of garth snow wearing refrigerators on each leg

IIRC Vernons price tag was just too much at that point as well for a guy that could easily end up as your 1B. I think I asked @GMR about why the wings didnt do a major upgrade in goal before Hasek, and the gist of it was that the Little Caesars money wasnt as endless as we all think
 

GMR

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Vernon actually did a half-decent job of reinventing himself in the 90s as a hybrid, but theres only so much a 5'7 goalie can do to stay relevant in the age of garth snow wearing refrigerators on each leg

IIRC Vernons price tag was just too much at that point as well for a guy that could easily end up as your 1B. I think I asked @GMR about why the wings didnt do a major upgrade in goal before Hasek, and the gist of it was that the Little Caesars money wasnt as endless as we all think
I don't remember that discussion honestly.

The only major upgrade over Osgood would be to get Hasek, Roy, Belfour, or Brodeur. Those guys weren't going to Detroit during the late 90's. Maybe they could have pursued Cujo after 1998. He signed with Toronto that summer. Not for much money if memory serves correct. I don't recollect whether Detroit was pursuing him at the time.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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I don't remember that discussion honestly.

The only major upgrade over Osgood would be to get Hasek, Roy, Belfour, or Brodeur. Those guys weren't going to Detroit during the late 90's. Maybe they could have pursued Cujo after 1998. He signed with Toronto that summer. Not for much money if memory serves correct. I don't recollect whether Detroit was pursuing him at the time.

4 years, 22 million. He became the 2nd highest paid player on the leafs behind Sundin who was making 7 mil a season.

During his FA season he was making 2.5 mil while Felix Potvin was making 2.7.

Detroit wasn't pursuing him in 1998. These were the days of a hard internal salary cap in Detroit. I think the team payroll was only around 30ish million at the time. The free agent frenzy didn't fully start until the 1999-2000 season, and really got out of hand in 2001.
 
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sonic92

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Wasn't there also some expansion draft concerns around keeping Osgood and trading Vernon?

I'm pretty sure the expansion announcement for Nashville, Atlanta, Columbus and Minnesota was around this time as well.
 

ShelbyZ

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Detroit Free Press, July 19, 1997, the day after Ken Holland was promoted to general manager in Detroit:

View attachment 400590

That probably sums it up pretty well. I seem to recall that the longer it took for Vernon to get traded that summer, the more the media in Detroit tried to drum up how the Vernon vs. Osgood thing was some internal power struggle between Bowman and Holland, where trading away a Bowman guy would be symbolic of Holland showing that he was in control now.

I think with the exception being Bowman, the Wings front office was pretty much already prepared for Vernon to be out of the picture for 97/98:

-The team thought they had something in Kevin Hodson and outside of a conditioning stint or two, kept him on NHL the roster as a 3rd goalie for 96/97 because they didn't want to risk losing him on waivers

-Vernon signed a 2 year deal right before 95/96. However, the deal had a bonus 3rd year that would kick in if he won 3 games in the Stanley Cup Final

-Up until they got deep in the PO's, that bonus year seemed unlikely to happen... By Christmas, Osgood had shouldered a majority of the Red Wings starts and was rolling with a .93+ SV% and 4 SO's. While Vernon had only started one game in a month, and had even taken a backseat to Hodson for the #2 job. It was rumored around that time that the Wings were shopping Vernon, reportedly offering him to the Bruins as part of a package for Tocchet, but apparently didn't find much interest due to his salary and being a likely UFA at the end of the year. Osgood then struggles after Christmas and through January, allowing Vernon to get back into a rotation. However, Bowman doesn't decide who starts in the playoffs until right before they begin.

Aside from that:

-Hodson was no longer exempt from the waiver draft starting in 97/98, so the Red Wings had to make a decision on two goalies to protect or risk losing one for nothing. They saw more value in rolling with the 2 younger options that would have some team control as opposed to keeping a 34YO who would be a UFA in year. Not that being a UFA was a big deal, but the Wings probably didn't want to negotiate with Vernon and his agent again.... (more on that in a bit).

-Now suddenly an expendable asset at their disposal, Vernon's trade value was probably as high as it could be coming off a Stanley Cup win where was MVP.

-Aside from the trio of Osgood, Vernon and Hodson, the Wings were even deeper in net with Norm Maracle entering his 4th year in the pro's and a year away from the team having to make the same decisions around waivers they had done with Hodson. Maracle had even outplayed Hodson in Adirondack by that point.

-Helping the team win it's first Cup in 42 years and the first with Ilitch as owner might have softened it some, but Vernon didn't exactly have a fan club in the Wings front office. They had a messy situation when Vernon's contract ended two years prior, which led to the goalie's camp suing the Red Wings. The suit went to an arbitration won by the team, but it was moot because they still ultimately had to pay much more than they wanted to retain him.

Wasn't there also some expansion draft concerns around keeping Osgood and trading Vernon?

I'm pretty sure the expansion announcement for Nashville, Atlanta, Columbus and Minnesota was around this time as well.

IIRC, going into the Nashville ED, the Wings seemed most concerned with losing some of their depth up front with young guys like Holmstrom/Knuble/Dandenault, or veterans like Kocur, Brown and especially Larionov.

Had they hypothetically kept Vernon, they could've held off on extending his contract, making him a UFA going into the ED. That either makes him of little interest to Nashville, or more valuable since they could claim him and then get the draft pick compensation when he signs with another team as a UFA (As they did with Richter and Krupp).

I don't remember that discussion honestly.

The only major upgrade over Osgood would be to get Hasek, Roy, Belfour, or Brodeur. Those guys weren't going to Detroit during the late 90's. Maybe they could have pursued Cujo after 1998. He signed with Toronto that summer. Not for much money if memory serves correct. I don't recollect whether Detroit was pursuing him at the time.
Detroit wasn't pursuing him in 1998. These were the days of a hard internal salary cap in Detroit. I think the team payroll was only around 30ish million at the time. The free agent frenzy didn't fully start until the 1999-2000 season, and really got out of hand in 2001.

I don't remember either, but I'd have a hard time believing Holland went after any goalie in the '98 offseason. He'd just won a Cup with a guy that he scouted, drafted and then advocated for for years and IIRC had already extended him for multiple years at a decent price for a starting goalie.
 

Big Phil

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Like others have mentioned, it was a good time to trade him from a value standpoint. Vernon and Osgood were both more or less the same at that time. May as well keep the younger, cheaper guy. Plus they won in 1998 as well. They didn't get much for him though.

Detroit won the three Cups with that core with a different goalie each time starting in net. So I think with that team it was interchangeable.

Lastly, I am pretty sure Vernon is the only goalie who has taken his team to 4 Cup final appearances that isn't in the HHOF. Just going off the top of my head. I could be wrong. Of course, there are some dumpster fire of playoff losses in between those appearances. I honestly think the post 1989-'94 Flames disastrous postseasons are what has kept him out.
 

GrkFlyersFan

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Vernon handed Garth Snow his ass in the 97 Finals.
Hey now, hey now, Snow was merely the Flyers backup in '97 and only started Game 2 of the SCF. He handed Hextall his ass!

Anyway, it made sense to keep Osgood over Vernon despite Vernon's heroics in '97. Clearly Osgood was good enough to repeat in '98, Vernon didn't do anything special after leaving Detroit. Couple years as SJ starter, Florida rented him in 2000, then he finished his career back in Calgary doing a couple years as backup to Fred Brathwaite and then Roman Turek. Osgood on the other hand was not that great in the years that followed, which is why they got Hasek. Of course he eventually found himself back with Detroit as Hasek's backup and even relieved him in the '08 Playoffs as they won the Cup. Hasek re-retired after that, Osgood was back in as they lost in '09, and then finished out his career with 2 years as Jimmy Howard's backup before retiring in 2011.
 

Big Phil

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Fleury is another one for a while still.

I guess depending on how you look at it, 4 or 5 Cup final visits. 2008 and 2009 for sure that was all him. 2018 as well. 2016 he plays 58 games and only two in the playoffs because he is hurt and they go with Murray and sort of just keep him going because he is hot, even after Fleury is back.

2017 he and Murray split regular season duties and they start Fleury in the playoffs and he plays the first 15 games for the Pens. Mostly rather well. I think Murray was hurt a bit, so when he comes back and Fleury plays his first poor game which is against Ottawa in round 3, they replace him and Murray goes the rest of the way. Ironic though, since Fleury is the reason they got past Washington.

So the teams he was on have made 5 finals, with him being a part of every one of them. But just 3 times he actually played in the final. I get the feeling Fleury is in the HHOF at the end of his career though.
 

Stephen

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Aside from the looming Nashville Predators expansion draft for 1998, you'll also remember that Kevin Hodson was briefly touted as possible goalie of the future for Detroit at that point.
 

Nerowoy nora tolad

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Vernon handed Garth Snow his ass in the 97 Finals.

I know

Hey now, hey now, Snow was merely the Flyers backup in '97 and only started Game 2 of the SCF. He handed Hextall his ass!

Anyway, it made sense to keep Osgood over Vernon despite Vernon's heroics in '97. Clearly Osgood was good enough to repeat in '98, Vernon didn't do anything special after leaving Detroit. Couple years as SJ starter, Florida rented him in 2000, then he finished his career back in Calgary doing a couple years as backup to Fred Brathwaite and then Roman Turek. Osgood on the other hand was not that great in the years that followed, which is why they got Hasek. Of course he eventually found himself back with Detroit as Hasek's backup and even relieved him in the '08 Playoffs as they won the Cup. Hasek re-retired after that, Osgood was back in as they lost in '09, and then finished out his career with 2 years as Jimmy Howard's backup before retiring in 2011.

AFAIK Snow was actually the Flyers starter for a good chunk of that playoffs run, more of a situation where him and Hextall were neck and neck in a 1A/1B situation. I did a breakdown of it in a previous thread and I recall Snow was the starter for most of the playoffs up until a rough patch in the Rangers series where Hextall took over, the full breakdown is here:

1996-97 Philadelphia Flyers
 
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GrkFlyersFan

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I know



AFAIK Snow was actually the Flyers starter for a good chunk of that playoffs run, more of a situation where him and Hextall were neck and neck in a 1A/1B situation. I did a breakdown of it in a previous thread and I recall Snow was the starter for most of the playoffs up until a rough patch in the Rangers series where Hextall took over, the full breakdown is here:

1996-97 Philadelphia Flyers
Well yes, Snow began the playoffs in goal because he was in better form, but Hextall was the real starter of that team. He started 54 games, compared to just 28 for Snow. It's kind of like how Grubauer started the first couple for Washington in 2018. Sure, Holtby was the starter, but Grubauer was in better form going into the playoffs. Only difference is, Snow kept the net for more than 2 games. Hextall got back in during the ECF and Snow was only seen again in Game 2. And strictly talking about Detroit since that's what this thread is about, it was Hextall they beat in 3 of the 4. Actually even with Detroit, Osgood started more than Vernon overall that season, but that's just residue from the fact that Osgood was the starter the previous season. Took time for Vernon to take it back.
 
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Big Phil

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Fleury is another one for a while still.

Does Andy Moog count here?

Cup final in 1983, 1984, 1988, 1990. Granted, only 1983 and 1990 were when he was starting the entire playoffs. But he played in the final in 1984 (Fuhr injury) and 1988.
 

Albatros

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Does Andy Moog count here?

Cup final in 1983, 1984, 1988, 1990. Granted, only 1983 and 1990 were when he was starting the entire playoffs. But he played in the final in 1984 (Fuhr injury) and 1988.

In a sense for sure, but I think if we compare him to Fleury in 2017 and the proposition is taking the team to the finals, then Fleury took 75 % of the wins required to get there while Moog in 1988 had just one. But ultimately even one win is a meaningful contribution so why not.
 

ShelbyZ

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Aside from the looming Nashville Predators expansion draft for 1998, you'll also remember that Kevin Hodson was briefly touted as possible goalie of the future for Detroit at that point.

Ironically, the Wings would end up going into the Nashville ED trying to make a deal with Poile in exchange for a guarantee that they would take Hodson or Norm Maracle instead of one of their unprotected veteran forwards Gilchrist, Brown or Kocur.

This reminded me of what an odd saga Hodson's short NHL career became. The Red Wings perceived upside and/or value in Hodson ended up causing the guy to spend almost two full NHL season where he barely played any meaningful hockey.

I also recall that the papers in Detroit always made sure to remind everyone that while Hodson may not play a whole lot, he still occupied and important role as the locker room's unofficial Jerry Seinfeld.
 

Jim MacDonald

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I didn't realize the Kevin Hodson dynamic was in play here......wow....did Hodson acquit himself well during some starts in the 96-97 regular season? Did Hodson become a "Bowman" guy or was he a "Holland" guy?
 

GrkFlyersFan

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I didn't realize the Kevin Hodson dynamic was in play here......wow....did Hodson acquit himself well during some starts in the 96-97 regular season? Did Hodson become a "Bowman" guy or was he a "Holland" guy?
Good point. I bet most people don't even know who the backup of the '98 team was! The following year he lost the backup job to Norm Maracle, then for 1999-2000 he was TB backup, spent two years out of hockey, then did the 02-03 season again as TB backup. Then a year in Europe, retiring in 2004. You would hope he wasn't a factor in pushing Vernon out.
 

Normand Lacombe

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ShelbyZ

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I didn't realize the Kevin Hodson dynamic was in play here......wow....did Hodson acquit himself well during some starts in the 96-97 regular season? Did Hodson become a "Bowman" guy or was he a "Holland" guy?

Hodson was definitely more of Holland's guy. Once Hodson finally got the back up job to himself, Bowman started to kind of sour on him halfway through the 97/98 season and the team tabbed Maracle as the back up before they even got to training camp in Fall 1998.

Good point. I bet most people don't even know who the backup of the '98 team was! The following year he lost the backup job to Norm Maracle, then for 1999-2000 he was TB backup, spent two years out of hockey, then did the 02-03 season again as TB backup. Then a year in Europe, retiring in 2004. You would hope he wasn't a factor in pushing Vernon out.

He definitely was a factor. Ken Holland had this to say after making the trade:

It's the same situation this year. We have two young goaltenders who we, as an organization, believe in. It's a tremendously difficult situation to even consider trading Mike Vernon, who is a Conn Smythe winner. But we have to remember that up until Christmas of last year, Chris Osgood was the goalie playing the most. We feel Chris can carry a bulk of the load. We also believe in Kevin Hodson. This is not an easy decision to make.

Yet for all the promise he supposedly had, Hodson seemed to always end up in situations where he was a 3rd wheel or being offered up to the expansion clubs of that era:

1996-97: First year he's no longer waiver exempt. Wings think he's too valuable to risk losing on waivers, so the carry him as a #3 goalie behind Osgood and Vernon. Outside of a couple of conditioning loans to the IHL and a month or so around Nov and Dec where he overtakes Vernon to be the #2 guy, he doesn't play much.
1997-98: Gets the back up job behind Osgood. Starts the year getting around 20-25% of the starts, but after a couple of stinkers in December, Bowman starts to decrease his use. In March, both Osgood and Hodson go down with injuries, which allows the team to get a look at the next in line, Norm Maracle, who plays well.
1998 Offseason: Now viewing him as expendable, the Wings try to make a deal with Nashville where the Preds would take Hodson or Maracle instead of one of their unprotected veteran forwards. Poile declines and ends up selecting Doug Brown
Later in the 98 Offseason: Even before getting into camp, the Wings declare that they intend to give the backup job to Norm Maracle and are likely to trade Hodson before the waiver draft. However, Holland states he won't take less than a 3rd rounder and is fine hanging onto 3 goalies until he gets that price.
1998 Camp/Preseason: The Wings reportedly come close to dealing Hodson to Florida and Carolina, but Florida opts to wait to see what the Leafs do with Felix Potvin now that they have CuJo, and Carolina ends up going with Arturs Irbe who impresses on a PTO and signs for super cheap. Maracle then ends up getting hurt and misses the entire pre-season.
Start of 1998-99: The Wings ultimately decide not to trade and opt to start the season with Hodson as back up as they send Maracle to the AHL on a conditioning loan. It's still reported Hodson will be traded when Maracle is back in the NHL and Holland gets the price he wants.
Mid 1998-99: By January, it's already being reported that as GM of the Thrashers, former Wings AGM Don Waddell is likely to claim Norm Maracle in the upcoming expansion draft. Around this time it's reported that the Lightning inquire about Hodson, but the Wings decline as they can retain him as backup after they inevitably lose Maracle to Atlanta. (Side note: I also wonder if around this time the Wings FO/locker room sour on Maracle a bit. Around late January/early February, Maracle gets arrested for a DUI, which I can't imagine went over well on a team that months earlier celebrated winning a Cup with a wheelchair bound Vladimir Konstantinov and still had the guys stall set up in the LR...)
1999 trade deadline: With the Wings hovering around .500 and badly needing some depth due to injuries (they were icing a 4th line of Petr Klima-Stacy Roest-Darryl Laplante for like 2 minutes a night), they circle back with the Lightning and send them Hodson as part of a deal that brings in Wendel Clark. IIRC, another factor in the deal was to keep Clark from going to the Stars.
Rest of 98/99 with the Lightning: The Lightning opt to finish the season platooning young goalies Hodson and Corey Schwab, making Bill Ranford expendable. Ranford goes to Detroit in a separate later deal where the Lightning eat a whole bunch of his remaining contract. Hodson makes his Lightning debut relieving Schwab in a game against the Red Wings at JLA. Hodson faces his old team still wearing his red and white pads and gloves. After 4 starts in 2 weeks, Hodson gets injured and misses the rest of the season.
1999 Offseason: Despite the limited action, the Lightning choose to protect Hodson in the expansion draft and lose Schwab to Atlanta. Less than a week later, the Lightning make a big trade with the Rangers acquiring Dan Cloutier in a package for the 4th overall pick. With Daren Puppa expected to be healthy for the start of 99/00, Hodson is once again relegated to a 3rd wheel spot. The Lightning also make a change at coach replacing Jacques Demers with Steve Ludzik.
1999-00 Season: Puppa only lasts for the 1st month of the season, making Hodson Cloutier's back up. However, Hodson has a contentious relationship with Ludzik and while the Lightning are mired in a slump where they win 2 games in the span of about 2 months, Hodson gets waived. After clearing waivers, Hodson goes back to Detroit, albeit with the Vipers of the IHL.
2000 Offseason: Once again, Hodson finds himself being offered up to an expansion team. The Canadiens were in a pickle wanting to protect Jeff Hackett and Jose Theodore, which left them with only 3 spots to protect D men. They were trying to make a deal with Columbus to select an unprotected goalie from them so they wouldn't lose a dman later in the Expansion draft. They acquired Hodson from the Lightning to give the Jackets another option in hopes they'd select Hodson or Eric Fichaud. The Jackets ultimately opt to take journeyman farmhand Frederic Chabot, which nets them a 2nd rounder from the Habs. A few days after the expansion draft, the Habs waive Hodson and buy out the rest of his contract.
2000-2002: Hodson retires and returns to the Soo, where he ends up on the Greyhounds coaching staff under Craig Hartsburg in 01-02 before his NHL comeback attempt for 02-03 with the Lightning.
 

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