Why did the Blues give up on Rod Brind'Amour?

[Normand Lacombe]

In September 1991, St. Louis traded Brind'Amour and Dan Quinn to Philly for Ron Sutter and Murray Baron. Why did the Blues give up on Brind'Amour so quickly and for so little? Brind'Amour was a 1st team All NHL Rookie in 1989-90 and, despite a sophomore slump in 1990-91, still had great potential.

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[vadim sharifijanov]

my hypothesis has always been that ron caron was obsessed with getting a big tough defenseman.

re: baron specifically, i think that was a panic trade to fill the hole created when they lost scott stevens.

1989-'90 season:

March 6 - Adrien Plavsic and St. Louis' 1st round (Shawn Antoski) in 1990 to Vancouver for Rich Sutter, Harold Snepsts and 2nd round choice (Craig Johnson) acquired from St. Louis in September 6, 1988 trade. [big young softie in plavsic for the bigger and grizzled, crease-clearing vet harry snepsts]


1990 offseason:

July 12 - Scott Stevens signed as a free agent.


1990-'91 season:

October 3, 1990 - Mario Marois claimed from Quebec in Waiver Draft. Bob Bassen claimed from Chicago in Waiver Draft. [not especially big, but marois was a physical guy; he seems to have replaced gordie roberts, another formerly decent physical two-way d-man who was on his last legs]

March 5 - Geoff Courtnall, Sergio Momesso, Cliff Ronning, Robert Dirk and fifth round pick (Brian Loney) in 1992 to Vancouver for Garth Butcher and Dan Quinn. [giving up a big, young pylon in dirk for a tough as nails vet who was on the brink of becoming a pylon himself]


1991 offseason:

September 2 - Scott Stevens awarded to New Jersey as compensation for the Blues signing free agent Brendan Shanahan. [creating a hole to be filled by...]

September 22 - Ron Sutter and Murray Baron from Philadelphia in exchange for Rod Brind'Amour and Dan Quinn.


1991-'92 season:

February 7 - Adam Oates to Boston for Craig Janney and Stephane Quintal.

 

[bukwas]

Apparently there was an issue with the Blues long term plans of utilizing Brind'Amour.
I posed that question shortly after the trade to a guy i worked with who was a close friend of Rod's father. Obviously i can't prove that conversation happened or that was his reply to the question so everyone is welcome to dismiss it.

 

[decma]

my hypothesis has always been that ron caron was obsessed with getting a big tough defenseman.

re: baron specifically, i think that was a panic trade to fill the hole created when they lost scott stevens.

Yes, a Globe & Mail article right after the trade suggests the Blues were very focused on replenishing their D corps:

The St. Louis Blues, in a trade aimed at bolstering their defence, sent centres Rod Brind'Amour and Quinn to the Philadelphia Flyers on Sunday for defenceman Murray Baron and centre Ron Sutter.

Sutter, 27, is the brother of Blues coach Brian Sutter and the twin of Blues right winger Rich Sutter.

But Brian Sutter made it clear that the 24-year-old Baron was the trade's key.

"We thought we had to upgrade ourselves back on the blue line," Sutter told a St. Louis radio station from Chicago, where St. Louis was playing the Blackhawks in a pre-season game.

"We gave up a strong, young player in Rod . . . but we got two dandies in return. (Baron's) a guy who's going to get better and better."

Baron, who scored eight goals and had eight assists in 67 games for Philadelphia last season, will help the Blues fill the defensive void created by an arbitrator.

St. Louis was looking for defensive help since Judge Edward Houston ruled the team had to give up Scott Stevens, their captain last season, as compensation for signing free-agent forward Brendan Shanahan from the New Jersey Devils.

In addition to Stevens, the Blues are without Harold Snepsts, Glen Featherstone and Tom Tilley from last season's blue-line corps. Snepsts retired, and Featherstone and Tilley left as free agents.

 

[tony d]

Brindamour had such a good run. He would have been a good keep on those mid 90s Blues teams.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Apparently there was an issue with the Blues long term plans of utilizing Brind'Amour.

what does this mean? that they were planning to keep him at LW instead of moving him back to his natural position, center?

 

[bukwas]

what does this mean? that they were planning to keep him at LW instead of moving him back to his natural position, center?

They wanted him to take more of an enforcer/scrappy role and Rod wanted to stick to his all around game. Not that he wouldn't throw down when the situation called for it, he was just concerned he wouldn't reach his potential adopting that strategy.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

They wanted him to take more of an enforcer/scrappy role and Rod wanted to stick to his all around game. Not that he wouldn't throw down when the situation called for it, he was just concerned he wouldn't reach his potential adopting that strategy.

interesting, thanks. so essentially, he didn't want to become more like his coach, so they traded him for an actual sutter?

 

[Normand Lacombe]

Another interesting tidbit was that Brind'Amour and Curtis Joseph were originally offered as compensation for the RFA signing of Brendan Shanahan. According to the book, Blue Fire, the Blues were worried that Brind'Amour would sulk knowing they tried to unload him to New Jersey.

 

[bukwas]

interesting, thanks. so essentially, he didn't want to become more like his coach, so they traded him for an actual sutter?

Basically, yes.
I suppose the philosophical differences made moving Brind'Amour a more palatable decision at the time, with hindsight not reflecting particularly well on it.

 

[ForsbergForever]

That trade was just terrible. Brind'amour, Cliff Ronning and Geoff Courtnall is basically an entire second line. Losing Stevens really screwed things up for Caron and his plans, imagine if they didn't lose anyone due to the Shanahan signing.

Shanahan-Oates-Hull
Courtnall-Brind'amour-Ronning

Stevens-Jeff Brown

Joseph

That's a pretty dangerous lineup...

 

[Bluesguru]

Unloading Brind'Amour was a Brian Sutter move. Sutter was obsessed with defensive responsibilities and he really stifled Brind'Amour's game during his 2nd year here. So Sutter found a way out to get his brother Ron on board with St. Louis. Worst thing Blues ownership did at the time was allowing Sutter to make personnel decisions.

 

[NyQuil]

My impression at the time was that Rod was a talented floater with a questionable work ethic.

Kind of ironic given how his career unfolded.

His cousin played on my hockey team so I was following him fairly closely.

 

[streitz]

The blues always made strange roster decisions back then. Somehow they stayed a playoff team from the late 70's up until the lockout, only made the 3rd round twice.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

My impression at the time was that Rod was a talented floater with a questionable work ethic.

Kind of ironic given how his career unfolded.

His cousin played on my hockey team so I was following him fairly closely.

i don't remember ever hearing anything about his work ethic (which doesn't mean that you're not right, because i didn't follow the blues super closely).

i do, however, remember him being superduper sophomore jinxed, back when every year there would be at least one high profile second year player that would fall off the face of the earth, only to thereafter carry on his upward trajectory as if nothing ever happened. is it just me or did that phenomenon weirdly end in early-to-mid-90s?

That trade was just terrible. Brind'amour, Cliff Ronning and Geoff Courtnall is basically an entire second line. Losing Stevens really screwed things up for Caron and his plans, imagine if they didn't lose anyone due to the Shanahan signing.

Shanahan-Oates-Hull
Courtnall-Brind'amour-Ronning

Stevens-Jeff Brown

Joseph

That's a pretty dangerous lineup...

courtnall - ronning - momesso literally was an entire second line

in fact, the '95 canucks, which had in effect two second lines, beat the blues in the first round with

adams - linden - bure
geoff courtnall - ronning - oksiuta
momesso - beranek - russ courtnall

 

[McGarnagle]

Signing Shanahan was one of the dumbest moves in NHL history, and the ripple effect of it can't be measured.

If they don't poach him and just kept Stevens, they probably break through and get to a finals at some point in the mid-90s. New Jersey never wins anything and they probably move to Nashville by 1996. No Shanahan for Pronger, Shanahan for Coffey, who knows if the Wings ever break through or if the Whalers/Canes emerge around Pronger. Without the huge contract going to Shanahan, maybe Oates doesn't ask out too.

There's so many ramifications from one reckless RFA signing.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

^ almost certainly the league put stl on high alert and double secret probation after the stevens signing, which stl then took as a double dog dare

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Signing Shanahan was one of the dumbest moves in NHL history, and the ripple effect of it can't be measured.

If they don't poach him and just kept Stevens, they probably break through and get to a finals at some point in the mid-90s. New Jersey never wins anything and they probably move to Nashville by 1996. No Shanahan for Pronger, Shanahan for Coffey, who knows if the Wings ever break through or if the Whalers/Canes emerge around Pronger. Without the huge contract going to Shanahan, maybe Oates doesn't ask out too.

There's so many ramifications from one reckless RFA signing.

another ramification—what does brett hull from 1993 to, say, 1997 look like if oates is still around? wld we be calling him the greatest goal scorer of all time?

 

[Voight]

another ramification—what does brett hull from 1993 to, say, 1997 look like if oates is still around? wld we be calling him the greatest goal scorer of all time?

He'd certainly be on par with his father & Ovy.

 

[Hoser]

Signing Shanahan was one of the dumbest moves in NHL history, and the ripple effect of it can't be measured.

If they don't poach him and just kept Stevens, they probably break through and get to a finals at some point in the mid-90s. New Jersey never wins anything and they probably move to Nashville by 1996. No Shanahan for Pronger, Shanahan for Coffey, who knows if the Wings ever break through or if the Whalers/Canes emerge around Pronger. Without the huge contract going to Shanahan, maybe Oates doesn't ask out too.

There's so many ramifications from one reckless RFA signing.

Don't forget the Shanahan signing was also arguably the single greatest factor that caused the players' strike in April 1992, only seven months after Stevens was awarded to the Devils as compensation for the signing of Shanahan. Stevens had signed a contract with the Blues only a year before: awarding him specifically was a colossal slap in the face to the players, sending the message that "even if you exercise your right to sign with whomever you want we [the owners] can still find a way to dictate where you play".

The '92 strike led directly to John Ziegler being replaced by Gil Stein, Stein being replaced by Gary Bettman, Bettman being given the imperative to lock the players out in '94, and the failures of the '95 CBA led directly to the '04-'05 cancelled season and '12-'13 lockout...