Why did Kirk Muller get traded to the New York Islanders in 1994-95?

[Hobnobs]

kirk muller, wendel clark, trevor linden, none of those guys were ever the same. maybe it's being the gritty canadian captain of a canadian team... or maybe it's going to the islanders?

a decent argument that ryan smyth, who wasn't the oilers' captain but might as well have been, belongs in that list too. but his career didn't fall off quite as steep a cliff as muller, clark, or linden.

Though they were all done before going to New York. Atleast the first 3.

 

[MXD]

I still maintain that Muller was the collateral in this trade.

 

[MadLuke]

kirk muller, wendel clark, trevor linden, none of those guys were ever the same. maybe it's being the gritty canadian captain of a canadian team... or maybe it's going to the islanders?

a decent argument that ryan smyth, who wasn't the oilers' captain but might as well have been, belongs in that list too. but his career didn't fall off quite as steep a cliff as muller, clark, or linden.

I think for all those guys the connection could be, if I GM decide to trade them even with everything they represented for their franchise and the heart&soul reputation, it is because they knew they were physically near finish or something of the sort, otherwise they would have kept them.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I still maintain that Muller was the collateral in this trade.

honestly, i just don't think schneider, then or ever, was good enough to be the main piece of a trade for turgeon. in retrospect muller was done, and maybe even at the time a lot of/most people thought he wasn't coming back from the dead. but i think he still had enough shine to fetch turgeon.

but you're right of course; schneider obviously had to go. so did muller, of course, though to a lesser degree. just like chelios before him and keane after, a habs captain who won't learn french has to go. of course, all three were traded for francophone stars, or in keane's case a hotshot quebecois prospect.

 

[MXD]

honestly, i just don't think schneider, then or ever, was good enough to be the main piece of a trade for turgeon. in retrospect muller was done, and maybe even at the time a lot of/most people thought he wasn't coming back from the dead. but i think he still had enough shine to fetch turgeon.

but you're right of course; schneider obviously had to go. so did muller, of course, though to a lesser degree. just like chelios before him and keane after, a habs captain who won't learn french has to go. of course, all three were traded for francophone stars, or in keane's case a hotshot quebecois prospect.

Schneider had to go for reasons explained.

If you want Pierre Turgeon in his prime and the other teams asks for a two-way player who's -21 after 33 games, well...

I'll always opine that Schneider and Turgeon were the players that had to go, with Muller and Malakhov the collaterals.

 

[FerrisRox]

honestly, i just don't think schneider, then or ever, was good enough to be the main piece of a trade for turgeon.

During the lockout a rumour surfaced about Mathieu Schneider being traded. The rumoured deal had Schneider being sent to the Detroit Red Wings, straight up, for Steve Yzerman. Schneider's stock was high then and I also think he was the main piece headed to New York for Turgeon.

 

[The Panther]

At this point, it's obligatory to point out Muller's career minus 147.

Montreal was the only team he played for where he finished as a 'plus', albeit a plus 1.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

During the lockout a rumour surfaced about Mathieu Schneider being traded. The rumoured deal had Schneider being sent to the Detroit Redwings, straight up, for Steve Yzerman. Schneider's stock was high then and I also think he was the main piece headed to New York for Turgeon.

i find that rumour very hard to believe. steve yzerman was steve yzerman. he wasn't a playoff hero (yet) but during the lockout he's coming off an injury-interrupted season where he was 6th in points/game, following a run of six straight hundred point seasons.

meanwhile, mathieu schneider is coming off a breakout season where he finished tied for 18th in scoring among defensemen (with yves racine and alexei zhitnik, sandwiched between jyrki lumme and sylvain cote). for reference, malakhov finished five points ahead, at 15th. the previous year, malakhov led all rookie defensemen in scoring and finished well ahead of schneider in both points and points/game.

say what you will about kirk muller but at least he had a pedigree. plus in 1995 he was coming off leading the habs in playoff scoring (no one in the seven game series loss to boston had more points than muller had goals), while schneider was injured for the second straight year. at the time of the trade, muller was still only two years removed from being hard-matched against sakic, lafontaine, and turgeon and outscoring all of them.

 

[FerrisRox]

i find that rumour very hard to believe.

Do you not remember it at the time?

It was very widely reported. Between the rumour of him going to Montreal and the rumour that Detroit was also entertaining the idea of trading him to Ottawa straight up for Alexei Yashin, it seemed certain that once the league started back up, Detroit would be without Steve Yzerman.

Reportedly Mike Illitch stepped in and nixed any deal that would have sent Yzerman out of Motown.

Here's a piece from the Hartford Courant that makes mention (in the notes at the end of the article) of the Schneider/Yzerman rumour (and says all sides deny it) and it also says that Yzerman will surely be gone when the trade embargo is lifted.

IT'S QUITE A DEPARTURE

Here's another mention of the possible deal, this time with the Canadiens offering up Schneider and their first round draft pick.

Steve Yzerman

This piece cites Le Journal de Montreal reporting, at the time, that Canadiens coach Jacques Demers, who coached Yzerman in Detroit previously, was a driving force behind the Habs targeting him and offering up Schneider and a 1st rounder to get him.

Steve Yzerman

 

[Big Phil]

Serge Savard's last trade in Montreal wasn't it? He was fired just a handful of games into the 1995-'96 season. He made a lot of bad trades in his GM career and sometimes that gets glossed over a bit because Patrick Roy was there to save his bacon and win him a couple of Cups. However..............this was not one of those trades. Muller's offense fell off a cliff after this as it was. He was a significantly different player in the 2nd half of his career than his first. I remember us getting him in early 1996 and my first thought was "Wow, we snagged Muller!" I was still thinking this is the high scoring Muller but it wasn't and it never would be again.

So for once in this era Montreal made a good trade. Turgeon was better than Muller at this time, no doubt. The strange thing is a year and a half later Turgeon was traded for spare parts.

 

[Newsworthy]

Muller was clearly the main NYI want. Savard promised Muller he wouldn't be traded than reneged days later.
That should tell the story right away. Isles thought Pierre wasn't a great leader and tough so they felt Muller could bring offense and pain. They were wrong and Isles made an awful trade. Including Malakhov was mind boggling which to me shows that Maloney was in over his head.
Schneider was going to be traded regardless. As reported he had personal issues in Montreal.
I hated this trade right away as Turgeon was my favorite player and it almost cost me my fandom.

 

[Hobnobs]

Serge Savard's last trade in Montreal wasn't it? He was fired just a handful of games into the 1995-'96 season. He made a lot of bad trades in his GM career and sometimes that gets glossed over a bit because Patrick Roy was there to save his bacon and win him a couple of Cups. However..............this was not one of those trades. Muller's offense fell off a cliff after this as it was. He was a significantly different player in the 2nd half of his career than his first. I remember us getting him in early 1996 and my first thought was "Wow, we snagged Muller!" I was still thinking this is the high scoring Muller but it wasn't and it never would be again.

So for once in this era Montreal made a good trade. Turgeon was better than Muller at this time, no doubt. The strange thing is a year and a half later Turgeon was traded for spare parts.

At the end of his tenure he made bad trades ie the carbo and the Leclair deals. But this deal was a good one and his dealing before that were mostly good.

His last trade came the day after. He sent DiPietro to the Leafs for a draft pick.

Edit: Well scratch that. I forgot he was the GM that did the Claude and Chelios trades...

 

[Big Phil]

At the end of his tenure he made bad trades ie the carbo and the Leclair deals. But this deal was a good one and his dealing before that were mostly good.

His last trade came the day after. He sent DiPietro to the Leafs for a draft pick.

Edit: Well scratch that. I forgot he was the GM that did the Claude and Chelios trades...

The Claude for Sylvain Turgeon deal makes no sense other than it seemed clear that the Habs were done with Claude. Didn't Pat Burns refuse to send the trainer out to help him because he knew - or assumed - he was faking it? The Savard trade is one of those things that I don't think was easy to predict because Savard just had 80 points in 60 games and did not show signs of slowing down. However, you don't give up a Norris winning defenseman. This is just something you hang onto. It didn't help that Savard wasn't given the same free reign in Montreal and played in a much different system. They should have just let him do his thing like he did in Chicago. He was that good of a forward to let him do that. I am guessing burn out might have been a factor as well for Savard after carrying the load in Chicago all those years. As for Chelios, well, he's a top 10 defenseman of all-time. Bad move.

 

[Hobnobs]

The Claude for Sylvain Turgeon deal makes no sense other than it seemed clear that the Habs were done with Claude. Didn't Pat Burns refuse to send the trainer out to help him because he knew - or assumed - he was faking it? The Savard trade is one of those things that I don't think was easy to predict because Savard just had 80 points in 60 games and did not show signs of slowing down. However, you don't give up a Norris winning defenseman. This is just something you hang onto. It didn't help that Savard wasn't given the same free reign in Montreal and played in a much different system. They should have just let him do his thing like he did in Chicago. He was that good of a forward to let him do that. I am guessing burn out might have been a factor as well for Savard after carrying the load in Chicago all those years. As for Chelios, well, he's a top 10 defenseman of all-time. Bad move.

Well after checking some of his trades Im starting to wonder why he wasn't sacked earlier.. Skrudland for Leeman, Lefebvre for a 4th, Svoboda for Haller, trading Ludwig for Diduck which he then flipped for a 4th, Lumme for a 2nd. The cup helps ofc but geez...

 

[barbu]

And then there's Kordic for Courtnall
Corson for Damphousse
Courtnall for Bellows
Getting Bobby Smith for Acton and Napier

He made some good deals and some bad deals. Some look worse with hindsight too like the Chelios and Lemieux deals, but it's also because the players they got did not deliver anything close to reasonable expectations.

Some of the deals like the Lumme and Lefebvre were caused by having so much D talent in the pipeline. There just wasn't room for these guys to make a case for themselves on the habs roster.

All in all Serge Savard did fairly well.

 

[Hobnobs]

Yea but you should still get better value for your D prospects.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

And then there's Kordic for Courtnall
Corson for Damphousse
Courtnall for Bellows
Getting Bobby Smith for Acton and Napier

He made some good deals and some bad deals. Some look worse with hindsight too like the Chelios and Lemieux deals, but it's also because the players they got did not deliver anything close to reasonable expectations.

Some of the deals like the Lumme and Lefebvre were caused by having so much D talent in the pipeline. There just wasn't room for these guys to make a case for themselves on the habs roster.

All in all Serge Savard did fairly well.

i always felt like trading pierre turgeon to reacquire shayne corson was rejean houle's insane overcorrection for savard trading away claude lemieux for sylvain turgeon.

to be fair, if montreal doesn't trade away lumme, lefebvre, gerald diduck, and petr svoboda, three if not all four probably would have been in montreal's top six during the '93 cup run.

the way i see it:

desjardins lefebvre
lumme schneider
diduck odelein

with svoboda as the seventh guy who slides into the lineup when schneider gets hurt

all those guys were better than daigneault, rookie brisebois, rob ramage's corpse, and kevin haller, whom svoboda was traded for straight up

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

reviving this thread because we've talked about muller falling off a cliff after his best season, when he was doug gilmour-lite for the habs en route to the cup.

here's something i found in a season in time:

"On the first shift of the game, on a clean hit from Mike Ricci, I tore the cartilage off my collarbone," recalls Kirk Muller. Unlike Schneider's, Muller's injury would be kept secret and he would continue to play, but only having his collarbone frozen before each game.

if he played the entire playoffs with torn cartilage, maybe it makes sense that he was never the same afterwards.

this is alluded to in the OP, but we have a direct culprit here.

Does anyone know what the effect of that sort of injury would be? Obviously cartilage ripped away sounds awful, but I have no idea how debilitating that would be.

Locker room cancer Schneider and primadonna Muller. Add sulking Wendel Clark to that equation.. Poor Isles never had a chance...

Did Schneider earn a reputation as a cancer elsewhere besides Montreal? The only confirmed story I know about the feud between him and Roy was from the 94-95 season where Roy did a sarcastic motivational speech between periods, saying the whole team was playing great... except for Schneider, which naturally triggered a brawl. If anything Ive always considered that a huge black mark against Roy for acting like a giant child & tearing the dressing room apart.

At this point, it's obligatory to point out Muller's career minus 147.

Montreal was the only team he played for where he finished as a 'plus', albeit a plus 1.

Worth noting that peak Muller was considered a shutdown center with benefits, so he naturally would be taking a lot of difficult matchups.

 

[The Panther]

Worth noting that peak Muller was considered a shutdown center with benefits, so he naturally would be taking a lot of difficult matchups.

That's always the excuse, though, isn't it? "He had the tough match-ups". Okay, maybe he did, but if he's an above-average player he should be able to win most of those tough match-ups.

Even if we wipe the Jersey years off Muller's resume, he's still a career - 84. And I'm not sure we should wipe those years... consider his last season in Jersey, 1988-89. Here are the Devils top four scorers:
+26 John MacLean
-23 Kirk Muller
+22 Patrick Sundstrom
+11 Tom Kurvers

I mean, it does kind of jump out at you!

But since Muller -- at least in the first half of his career -- was also a high-scoring player with PP time, etc., I feel it's more fair to look at his overall on-ice goals for/against, and not just official plus/minus. So: There were 8 seasons, out of 19 total, when Muller was on the ice for more goals for than goals against.

It's kind of unimpressive, and a bit curious.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Did Schneider earn a reputation as a cancer elsewhere besides Montreal? The only confirmed story I know about the feud between him and Roy was from the 94-95 season where Roy did a sarcastic motivational speech between periods, saying the whole team was playing great... except for Schneider, which naturally triggered a brawl. If anything Ive always considered that a huge black mark against Roy for acting like a giant child & tearing the dressing room apart.

i think the cancer thing with montreal usually refers to certain indiscretions schneider is rumoured to have had involving mrs. roy

i've never heard anything about schneider's character over the rest of his career, except that he didn't take his demotion very well at the very end in vancouver. but that might be understandable; not a lot of former all-stars take very well to being told that their careers are over.

The Canucks and Schneider split last week over irreconcilable differences stemming from his unhappiness about a limited role in Vancouver and the adverse effect this disenchantment had on his attitude.

Even after losing Kevin Bieksa to a possibly-season-ending leg injury the day Schneider was waived, Canuck coach Alain Vigneault is emphatic that he won’t take back the defenceman.

It’s classic addition by subtraction. The Canucks feel they are better without Schneider.

But how might Schneider’s attitude impact the Moose and younger players trying to improve and make the NHL?
“You just hope people have the integrity to be stand-up people,” Canuck assistant general manager Laurence Gilman said Sunday. “My sense is he’s reporting because he still wants to play hockey. He has made enough money in his career. He’s not going to go there just to collect a $250,000 signing bonus.”

The Canucks were probably hoping Schneider would simply retire. GM Mike Gillis, Schneider’s former agent, helped make his client wealthy and was the main proponent behind the veteran’s free-agent signing last summer. Schneider, who made $5.75 million last season, agreed Aug. 28 to a one-year deal with the Canucks.

but i think the real reason he played for five teams in his 20s is he didn't really become an upper echelon defenseman in the league until his 30s. before that, he was a particularly one-dimensional offensive guy that only gave you B+ offense. in those LA years, the offense turned into legitimate A level offense and i think detroit fans have disagreed with me on this in the past but he became at least passable in his own end around that time too.

 

[Scintillating10]

This was a '94-'95 midseason trade where Muller got dealt to the New York Islanders with Mathieu Schneider in return for Long Island sending Pierre Turgeon and Vladimir Malakhov to the Habs.

I know Kirk Muller was hindered by a separated shoulder for much of '93-'94 where the injury, along with winning the Stanley Cup in '92-'93 with Montreal, marked the beginning of a slow decline for Muller that would gradually turn him from a superstar scoring LW to an older, more defensive-minded grinder in his later years where he kinda stopped focusing on scoring in favor of more defense.

Muller's prime years were 1984-85 through 1992-93, a span of his first nine seasons as a potential franchise player when he focused on scoring. He was the guy who was previously a holdout in New Jersey that led to his trade to Montreal in 1991, where Muller replaced Shayne Corson as the Habs' #1 LW and made him obsolete and expendable.

End result was that Muller refused to report to the Isles where he was pretty much suspended from the team for part of '94-'95 and '95-'96, while Schneider was willing report and play for the Isles. Basically, the N.Y. Islanders were supposed to be winning the Muller-Turgeon trade since Muller was a strong veteran leader while Turgeon couldn't take his teams to the promised land, but the end results from this trade kind of makes it 50-50 and even.

Anyway, why did Montreal decide to get rid of Kirk Muller via trade in 1994-95? And what were the N.Y. Islanders' reasons for obtaining Muller? Did the Isles not like what they were seeing from Turgeon that they contemplated replacing him with Muller? And did they intend on shoehorning Muller as one of the Isles' top two centers along with Ray Ferraro?

Turgeon being local star and opening a new arena may of had something to do with it

 

[Bood12]

cuz Don Maloney was a Ranger at heart and wanted to get back at the Islanders for all the beatings in the early 80s

 

[seventieslord]

kirk muller, wendel clark, trevor linden, none of those guys were ever the same. maybe it's being the gritty canadian captain of a canadian team... or maybe it's going to the islanders?

a decent argument that ryan smyth, who wasn't the oilers' captain but might as well have been, belongs in that list too. but his career didn't fall off quite as steep a cliff as muller, clark, or linden.

I always put all four of those guys in the same pile when it comes to how their careers progressed (specifically the "loved in a canadian city only to be traded away" thing).

These guys had 761 points in 871 games in the 3 seasons preceding their trades (and the season in which they were traded, if applicable), and just 488 in 758 games in the 3 seasons following the trade. That's a 27% drop. It sure felt like more than that at the time! Maybe it's because you got the sense from watching that their hearts weren't in it anymore.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I always put all four of those guys in the same pile when it comes to how their careers progressed (specifically the "loved in a canadian city only to be traded away" thing).

These guys had 761 points in 871 games in the 3 seasons preceding their trades (and the season in which they were traded, if applicable), and just 488 in 758 games in the 3 seasons following the trade. That's a 27% drop. It sure felt like more than that at the time! Maybe it's because you got the sense from watching that their hearts weren't in it anymore.

other things they all have in common-- they were all drafted #1/2 overall and billed as franchise saviours. but none of them was a franchise talent, per se. muller was by far the closest.

they all came in at 18 with enormous hype, all had good rookie seasons (clark and linden were both calder runners-up and iirc both were THN's rookie of the year; muller was 6th), all probably got a little mixed up early on because of position changes (clark from D to LW, muller shuffling between C and LW, pat quinn always trying to convert linden from RW to C), all became fan favourites immediately for their effort and determination and fed off of that energy.

i guess without those fans behind their backs, which they'd been feeding off since they were 18, a light turned off for all of them.

i think also having seen through rebuilds as the wise-beyond-his-years leader of young rock bottom teams, none of them was really invested in going through the process again as a respected and accomplished vet in what everyone assumed was their primes.

 

[FerrisRox]

i think the cancer thing with montreal usually refers to certain indiscretions schneider is rumoured to have had involving mrs. roy

This isn't what happened. There is a story here, and it does involve Schneider and Roy's wife, but it's not what you are implying. Because I am not going to provide a source for it, I can't say what the real issue is, but I can say this, all Schneider is guilty of with Roy's wife is telling her about an indiscretion. He was never involved with her in anyway.