Why did Gretzky only win 2 Conn Smythes?

toothlessgoon

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Apr 18, 2020
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He had the best numbers in all four of his Cup wins. Were narratives more prevalent in voting back then, as in it's enough to sway voting if someone blocks a game tying goal with his face and is seen as willing his team to victory?
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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To some degree Gretzky had to measure up to his own standard, which no other players at the time had to. If he wasn't way better than everyone else then here might be temptation to look elsewhere. Small sample size helps the pack against someone like Gretzky too. Finally, he did have some great players on his own team for competition.
 

Albatros

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With Hextall for sure, a rookie goalie taking his team to game seven of the Stanley Cup Finals. Messier was the standout player winning the cup in '84 though and really emerged as a leader during those playoffs which ultimately gave him the edge.
 

toothlessgoon

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With Hextall for sure, a rookie goalie taking his team to game seven of the Stanley Cup Finals. Messier was the standout player winning the cup in '84 though and really emerged as a leader during those playoffs which ultimately gave him the edge.

Yes that was my point, it seems that Messier's win was pure narrative-driven, like a Hollywood movie version of who was most valuable rather than real life.
 

Albatros

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Yes that was my point, it seems that Messier's win was pure narrative-driven, like a Hollywood movie version of who was most valuable rather than real life.
I mean, his play had very real value. Successfully transformed into center for those playoffs and rallied his team by playing a gritty game as well as scoring some crucial goals. Gretzky scored at his usual high level, but he didn't have that much more to his game beyond the points.

 

NigerianNightmare

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I think it's only about individual stats of a particular superstar. Some other players had gone extra two miles to help their team succeed so they get a nod.

A good recent example is Kucherov. The best offensive numbers in 2 playoffs in a row, 2 Cups. But Zero Smythes

I think it's only about individual stats of a particular superstar. Some other players had gone extra two miles to help their team succeed so they get a nod.

A good recent example is Kucherov. The best offensive numbers in 2 playoffs in a row, 2 Cups. But Zero Smythes
 
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toothlessgoon

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Apr 18, 2020
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I think it's only about individual stats of a particular superstar. Some other players had gone extra two miles to help their team succeed so they get a nod.

A good recent example is Kucherov. The best offensive numbers in 2 playoffs in a row, 2 Cups. But Zero Smythes

I think it's only about individual stats of a particular superstar. Some other players had gone extra two miles to help their team succeed so they get a nod.

A good recent example is Kucherov. The best offensive numbers in 2 playoffs in a row, 2 Cups. But Zero Smythes

Kucherov's goal scoring totals were a little low. Vasilevkiy's numbers were in the range of winners like Tim Thomas and Jonathan Quick.
 

The Panther

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Like all subjective award voting, NHL Conn Smythes are determined largely by the culture of the times -- who is voting, what values they represent, etc.

In 1976, the Canadiens won the Cup, sweeping out the Flyers, and thus breaking the bad-for-the-NHL mini-dominance of the gooning Broad Street Bullies. You'd think, in a sweep, with the media-favored team winning, that somebody from the winning club would take the Conn Smythe. But since Reg Leach scored an unheard of 19 goals in 16 games and dominated Philly's scoring, voters gave the Smythe to him, a winger.

In the '70s, the Conn Smythe had only been around for 10 years, and maybe voters were more easily swayed into voting for whomever was the statistically outstanding player.

I think the youth-movement, high-scoring early-'80s conversely led to some voter backlash against that style. In the Oilers' case, their free-flowing creative offense style went against the grain of the 1950s/60s'-era voters for these awards. And until you've won a couple of Cups, those voters aren't really convinced.

Gretzky was barely 23 in the 1984 playoffs, had done unimaginable things already, and been amply awarded for it. Mark Messier was like a young Gordie Howe from 1952. He fulfilled older, conservative voters' image of what a "real" hockey player, with toughness and skills, was about.

A similar thing happened with Rod Langway's Norris trophies in 1983 (okay, fair enough) and 1984 (yeah... no). It was the post-Carlyle Norris blowback.

Fast-forward to the 2000s and 2010s and it's a really different mindset of voters for these things, Now, the voters were the people from the 1980s who'd grown up with those young, high-scoring players. Also, the NHL was desperate to increase American fandom out of the Lock-out and get respectable playoff ratings on US network TV. Also, dynasties are over by now, so there's no longer a thought that one Cup by a dominant team will lead to more wins by that same team. Hence, Crosby (2016) and Ovechkin automatic-Conn Smythes.

Point being: If Gretzky was playing in New York or L.A. today and his team won 4 Stanley Cups in five years, he'd probably have four Conn Smythes. But that isn't to take anything away from Messier (or Hextall). Mess was still a deserving winner in 1984, but sometimes there's a different mindset across different eras.
 

VanIslander

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Put my butt on the line - an all-time challenge - one season on the line and Gretzky i draft again and again (unless Howe is available).
 

Big Phil

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6 Stanley Cup finals appearances, and each year he led the playoffs in points. But just two Smythes. I think we can all agree Smith in 1983 and Roy in 1993 earned their Smythe. They were the goalies on the winning team and Gretzky was not very good in the 1983 final and after Game 1 in 1993 he was okay, but really could have used one of the Kings to step up since he was so good in Game 1. So no arguments there.

We know he wins the 1985 and 1988 Conn Smythes. No arguments. In a way, it isn't even close. It was a little close with Messier in 1988 prior to the Cup final, but Gretzky's performance against Boston just re-iterated that he was the best that postseason.

Now onto 1984 and 1987. Two very often talked about years. Why does Gretzky lose in 1984? For starters, yes, I think voter fatigue played into it a bit. Gretzky had won everything under the sun at that time. If someone was close to him, yeah I think they look into it a bit more. So after Game 1 and 2 Gretzky and Messier did not have a point. Messier gotten into a fight near the end of Game 2 and then scored two goals in Game 3. Gretzky got a lone assist. So at this point you have Gretzky, the 205 point scorer in the season, with one point in the final, while Messier had two goals including the highlight reel goal, and one that changed the momentum of the series.

Game 4 Gretzky scored two goals, the first one two minutes in. It was his first goal in the Cup final vs. the Islanders including 1983. He scored another one. Messier had two points. At this point, Messier had still outscored him in the final, and he was physical.

Game 5 Gretzky hit the ground running. Two goals in the first period. An assist in the 2nd. Oil up 3-0 in the game and it was over before it started. If you look at the whole body of work, perhaps you give Gretzky the edge in the finals play, and statistically overall in the playoffs. But here is my thinking, when did the Smythe voting happen. I know they say it happens in the 2nd intermission in the final game, but did that happen in 1984? Because Gretzky's last game in the clincher was impressive. Or did they have their minds made up about Messier already?

1987 you just had a year of pretty good points still with 34, but a low goal total of 5. That probably was the difference. Honestly, if Gretzky had 12 points and 22 assists I think he wins the Smythe. Hextall had the narrative of staying close to the dynasty Oilers, and I think the last two games sort of put him over the top.

As for 1984 again, we have lots of precedent with this. It isn't always the top scorer. We know Kucherov led the playoffs in points the last two years, no Smythes. Dave Keon was tied for 5th in scoring on the Leafs in the playoffs. He won the Smythe. No one in my entire time on HF boards has ever suggested Jim Pappin was robbed of the Smythe (15 points) over Keon (8 points). I think most people get why Bob Gainey won in 1979. Butch Goring certainly has his defenders in 1981. Claude Lemieux in 1995, he was 4th in points on his team. Nieuwendyk over Modano in 1999. Also, the idea in 2013 is that Bergeron would have won had the Bruins won it. Sometimes it is timely goals and two-way play that stands out more than just pure points.
 
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tabness

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But here is my thinking, when did the Smythe voting happen. I know they say it happens in the 2nd intermission in the final game, but did that happen in 1984? Because Gretzky's last game in the clincher was impressive. Or did they have their minds made up about Messier already?

1987 you just had a year of pretty good points still with 34, but a low goal total of 5. That probably was the difference. Honestly, if Gretzky had 12 points and 22 assists I think he wins the Smythe. Hextall had the narrative of staying close to the dynasty Oilers, and I think the last two games sort of put him over the top.

As for 1984 again, we have lots of precedent with this. It isn't always the top scorer. We know Kucherov led the playoffs in points the last two years, no Smythes. Dave Keon was tied for 5th in scoring on the Leafs in the playoffs. He won the Smythe. No one in my entire time on HF boards has ever suggested Jim Pappin was robbed of the Smythe (15 points) over Keon (8 points). I think most people get why Bob Gainey won in 1979. Butch Goring certainly has his defenders in 1981. Claude Lemieux in 1995, he was 4th in points on his team. Nieuwendyk over Modano in 1999. Also, the idea in 2013 is that Bergeron would have won had the Bruins won it. Sometimes it is timely goals and two-way play that stands out more than just pure points.

According to the papers, for 1984, going into the finals from the Edmonton side the big candidates were Fuhr and Messier. Fuhr was the favorite but obviously got hurt. Gretzky did not seem to get much mention at all really, the Edmonton writers at least were favoring Lowe as the third guy.

In 1987, Gretzky was mentioned alongside Fuhr, Kurri, and Messier, but it seems like it was Hextall's to lose that series, and the big topic of discussion that might have made him lose it was the slash on Nilsson.

People overanalyze these awards way too much. A player who's played well with memorable moments is sometimes all it takes.
 

Yukon Joe

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Aug 3, 2011
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He had the best numbers in all four of his Cup wins. Were narratives more prevalent in voting back then, as in it's enough to sway voting if someone blocks a game tying goal with his face and is seen as willing his team to victory?

Well in 1984 you can certainly make the argument in favour of Messier, who did win.

Gretzky did win in 1985 and 1988 (and wasn't with the team for 1990).

So yeah - the one that really sticks out is 1987 when Hextall won the trophy despite his team losing in the Finals. It looks like it only happened 2 times before, and 1987 was the last time.
 

Hobnobs

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Smythe is more of a fotm award that they dont like to award to the same player. If there is any player they can give it to for any reason to avoid a repeat they will.
 

Iron Mike Sharpe

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In the recent Name the most shocking choice for Conn Smythe thread, I said:

"Came here to say Hextall, that one really galled me at the time. I get not wanting to give Gretzky another trophy for his case, no problem with that, but how about giving it to the next-best playoff performer on the team, Jari Kurri? For the third time in three Cup wins for the Oilers he led the playoffs in goals, scoring 15 in 21 games, including 5 in 7 against Philly, including the winner in game 7. He was high-octane yet unflappable in the face of the Flyers attack, easily in the Oilers' top 2-3, and the one perennially underrated Oiler who was always overlooked for hardware. Hextall let in 22 goals on an average of 29 shots per game in the Final, and was playing behind a crazy good blueline that included Howe, McCrimmon, Crossman, Marsh & Kjell Samuelsson, plus a crew of top notch defensive forwards. I'm not sure if the "look another rookie goalie like Roy" thing was a big factor, or "we lost Pelle Lindbergh so we'll award his successor," or the fact that he played a loud style for a goalie, but it really wasn't deserved, especially given that he lost. One of only a handful of Smythe winners on the losing side, but the trophy should've gone to the guy who beat him with the winning goal in game 7."
 

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Dec 6, 2017
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Yes that was my point, it seems that Messier's win was pure narrative-driven, like a Hollywood movie version of who was most valuable rather than real life.

I mean, his play had very real value. Successfully transformed into center for those playoffs and rallied his team by playing a gritty game as well as scoring some crucial goals. Gretzky scored at his usual high level, but he didn't have that much more to his game beyond the points.

Gretzky was barely 23 in the 1984 playoffs, had done unimaginable things already, and been amply awarded for it. Mark Messier was like a young Gordie Howe from 1952. He fulfilled older, conservative voters' image of what a "real" hockey player, with toughness and skills, was about.

I had no problem with the Messier win. He elevated his play to the next level in their playoff run, especially against the Islanders. He really stood out, which is part of why a strong narrative formed around him. As I wrote in the other Conn Smythe thread:

"Messier was outscored by Gretzky and Kurri in the Final, but the narrative around him at the time was that, like Goring, he was "the difference maker," and had sort of a Larry Robinson 1976 aura around him, that the Isles couldn't get past the Oilers this time around because Messier had come into his own as an intimidating presence, the Oilers' own version of Potvin, in that sense, and that he had vastly improved over the previous years' Finals performance and was determined to will the team to victory (a sort of anticipation of a similar narrative that would emerge around him again in 90 and 94)."
 

LeBlondeDemon10

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Smythe is more of a fotm award that they dont like to award to the same player. If there is any player they can give it to for any reason to avoid a repeat they will.
Yup. Especially when it comes to dynasties. Bossy,Trottier, Potvin, Lafleur all could have won multiple CS's.
 
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Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
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You mean 10-goal defenseman Victor Hedman?
Look; Kucherov had 34 points, Branden Point 33 that year. They competed against eachother whilst Hedman had 10 goals and 22 points.

Thats why I think Kuch should have won last year, believe he had 9 more points than his next closest team mate. Vasi was obviously fantastic and equally deserving but Kucherov stood out more last year when you look at raw numbers. (IMO some of the voters wanted to "punish" him for the LTIR stuff everyone was uo in arms over)
 

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