Why did Forsberg have a vastly better +/- compared to Sakic?

[streitz]

Yes.

I've never understood this narrative that Sakic / Yzerman / whoever was this defensive stud. I mean, what is this based on, exactly?

There's this narrative that as long as a high-scoring forward sticks around long enough, the better they are defensively. And if their team wins a Cup when they're a veteran, they're automatically considered a two-way forward stud now! (Never mind they're doing exactly the same thing they were doing twelve years earlier.) You either retire early as a scorer or play long enough to see yourself become a 'defensive forward' (whatever that is).

Yzerman said once that he didn't consider himself any better defensively when he was a veteran than when he was young; there was just a media narrative that grew up around him. (Again, it helps if your team suddenly wins when you're getting a bit old.)

I don't consider Forsberg a defensive whiz either, by the way, but I do think pound-for-pound he was a bit better than Sakic when each was at their peak. And Forsberg was certainly more physical, more likely to drag pucks out of the corner, and also more the type to carry the puck out of his own end to start a rush. Those kinds of things do help with five-on-five numbers.

But basically this 'defensive forward' stuff is a bunch of nonsense.

Yzerman was solid defensively in the 80's.

 

[Doctor No]

Yzerman was solid defensively in the 80's.

Evidence?

 

[Vujtek]

Fun fact that is rarely known for some reason: Joe Sakic = #1 all-time in career power play points


For whatever reason, power play goals is the stat everyone tracks, not power play points.

I don't know why NHL has posted that on their twitter but it's false. Sakic is 8th in career PPP. Gretzky has more PPA (686) than Sakic has PPP.

All-time top-10 in PPP:

1. Gretzky 890
2. Bourque 761
3. Francis 727
4. MacInnis 722
5. Lemieux 701
6. Coffey 664
7. Dionne 643
8. Sakic 631
9. Housley 612
10. Jagr 610

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Fun fact that is rarely known for some reason: Joe Sakic = #1 all-time in career power play points


For whatever reason, power play goals is the stat everyone tracks, not power play points.

I think that stat is based on outdated information. NHL.com shows Sakic as 8th all-time in powerplay points (behind Gretzky, Bourque, Francis, MacInnis, Lemieux, Coffey and Dionne).

(Sakic's first from the 1988 season to present - a lot of detailed scoring data gets cut off prior to that season).

 

[streitz]

Evidence?

I watched him play in the 80's?


Apparently you didn't.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think that stat is based on outdated information. NHL.com shows Sakic as 8th all-time in powerplay points (behind Gretzky, Bourque, Francis, MacInnis, Lemieux, Coffey and Dionne).

(Sakic's first from the 1988 season to present - a lot of detailed scoring data gets cut off prior to that season).

Thanks. That makes sense. I was actually wondering about that, but I couldn't find anything more recent in 5 minutes of googling (why is it so hard?)

Relative to Forsberg, however, Sakic was a significantly better PP player.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Thanks. You aware of any source for historical SH GF/GA? And, could Forsberg's higher +/- also be influenced by being on for more SH GF which you get a plus for?

For the source data - @Canadiens1958 may be able to speak to that better than me. Teams have tracked that for years (decades), but my guess is it's probably from the individual game logs.

SH goals for are included in plus/minus, but it might help Sakic more than Forsberg (49 vs 32 SH points, respectively).

It's aggrevating how Hockey-Reference doesn't track PPP and EVP, rather PPG/EVG and PPA/EVA and you have to do more legwork for queries involving total points by strength.

Agreed, that's frustrating.

 

[Vujtek]

Relative to Forsberg, however, Sakic was a significantly better PP player.

Their career PPP/game is actually almost identical. As is the case also if you only look at the seasons they played together.

 

[Thenameless]

Relative to Forsberg, however, Sakic was a significantly better PP player.

That makes total sense based on their respective styles of play. Forsberg being the possession monster that he was with all of that physicality is slightly better for even strength play and probably penalty killing as well. Sakic, with the slightly better overall offensive polish (especially with his wrist shot) makes him better at capitalizing on power play opportunities when your team already has the puck for most of the time in the offensive zone.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Their career PPP/game is actually almost identical. As is the case also if you only look at the seasons they played together.

Damn you for making me made me take time to do the math.

I see:

Sakic career: 205-426-631 in 1378 games
Forsberg career: 71-252-323 in 708 games

Sakic per 82 games: 12.2-25.3-37.5
Forsberg per 82 games: 8.2-29.1-37.3

I guess it depends on how much more value you place into goals vs assists.

 

[Doctor No]

Apparently you didn't.

Thanks for the words, but I did.

 

[streitz]

Thanks for the words, but I did.

I'm going to believe you didn't or else you wouldn't of quoted me with something so nonsensical.

 

[daver]

Any insights into their quality of their linemates.

Did one player tend to get lower depth linemates than the other or were their linemates more based on chemistry?

 

[feffan]

Any insights into their quality of their linemates.

Did one player tend to get lower depth linemates than the other or were their linemates more based on chemistry?

I would say it´s basically a wash. They seemed to be "favoured" different years... But would love if someone took the time to analyze it more than old memories. Funny enhoughthey even had their individual Hart seasons with the "same" linemates. Tanguay/Hejduk. For what´s it worth, Forsberg got Hejduk to 9 more goals and a Richard in that case. But that´s just bounces probably. The major thing to take from that is probably that Hejduk owes Sakic and Forsberg alot for having a 40+ and a 50 goal season. He was a great scorer, but I always tought that he would have been a 25-30 goal scorer without them.

 

[shadow1]

It's impossible to answer. Both guys were very good two-way centers, but Forsberg was an absolute beast defensively, widely considered one of the best two-way players in the game in his prime.

Here's a random clip I found on Youtube:

 

[Asheville]

Down 5-0?

Forsberg: "Hold my beer...."

 

[Asheville]

Never feared Sakic.

Forsberg, on the other hand, gave all opponents and their fans dirty pants.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Never feared Sakic.

Forsberg, on the other hand, gave all opponents and their fans dirty pants.

i feared the crap out of both. and milan hejduk too.

re: sakic specifically, he was the scariest player on the ice for a couple of my most memorable memories—the 2001 cup finals and 2002 olympics.

but sakic and i have history. he scored the OT winner in the first game i ever went to (vancouver and quebec, 1991). in 10 playoff games against the canucks, he scored in every single one. 11 goals, 7 assists (for comparison, forsberg was close behind, with 6 goals, 10 assists).