Why did Chicago reclaim Bobby Hull in 1979 only for him to never play for them?

[Fenway]

From everything I have read it appears Bill Wirtz kept the Blackhawks separate from his liquor and real estate companies and apparently any shortfalls he handled with his own money.

When Bobby Orr discovered he was broke after Eagleson drained his accounts and the word leaked to the Boston media, Wirtz according to Bob Verdi sent Orr a personal check for $1,000,000 with no payback required. Orr found out he was broke in the worst way possible when the monthly check to pay his mortgage bounced.

Jacobs has said many times everything he knows about running a hockey club with the guidance of Wirtz. Who knows why he did what he did - his own son doesn't understand it.

 

[Killion]

From everything I have read it appears Bill Wirtz kept the Blackhawks separate from his liquor and real estate companies and apparently any shortfalls he handled with his own money.....

Yes, really all beyond eccentric. So many dichotomies, things seemingly in conflict; Mikita, Hull & others treated parsimoniously, Hull in particular shabbily, vindictively yet upon learning of Orr's plight.... a check for a million dollars. No integration of his real estate holdings, liquor distribution & the Chicago Black Hawks.... no basic infrastructure in terms of administrative personnel... the broadcast blackouts... just goes on & on. The impression one is left with is that he was a man caught in a 1920's~40's time-loop. Everything hands-on, the hockey club his own personal toy rather than as a functioning business let alone to be made a profit center. Was to be kept separate from his "real" business activities. That it was more a "hobby" than a business. Throwback to the old 19th & early 20th century Robber Barons, the early decades of pro sports in North America. A man born about 80 years later than he should have been. Clearly his father & Big Jim Norris left a huge impression on him exposed to them as he was in his formative years. Thats really the only thing that makes sense, explains why he behaved & operated in the manner that he did.... Like Ballard, good & bad, though in Harold's case the bad was truly beyond bad, Wirtz at least having some class.

 

[tmmr]

About WHA quality vs. NHL: certainly the NHL had deeper talent overall, but both leagues were weaker due to more teams. Only 6 years before the WHA, major league (NHL) hockey consisted of just 6 teams!

I do believe the Winnipeg Jets of Hull, Nilsson, Hedberg, Sjoberg, could have competed (and did, in exhibition games) with any NHL team, even the great Canadiens teams of the mid to late 70's. What great hockey that would have been - Hull and the Jets vs. Lafleur and the Canadiens!

Hull is featured in the Greatest Sports Legends series (I have it on VHS, Hull in one half hour segment, Howe in the other! I don't see the Hull segment on youtube though). Hull was asked about how good Winnipeg was, WHA vs. NHL, etc. His response went something like this: 'When the NHL teams came into town to play us... we just toyed with them.'

 

[seventieslord]

while others say his best years were with the Winnipeg Jets where he remained an All-Star type of player but more importantly, his best seasons in terms of individual statistics and numbers.

....yeah no one says this.

 

[Fenway]

About WHA quality vs. NHL: certainly the NHL had deeper talent overall, but both leagues were weaker due to more teams. Only 6 years before the WHA, major league (NHL) hockey consisted of just 6 teams!

The legacy of the WHA was it opened up North American hockey to the European players and also gave NCAA players a chance which the NHL was loathe to do. The league that was hurt badly by the WHA was the AHL as quality of play dropped dramatically.

Could any of the WHA champions have won a 7 game series against the Stanley Cup winners from 1972-1979? I think the Houston Aeros could have battled the Flyers in 1974 and 1975 but nobody was beating Montreal in the late 70's.

 

[DowntownBooster]

About WHA quality vs. NHL: certainly the NHL had deeper talent overall, but both leagues were weaker due to more teams. Only 6 years before the WHA, major league (NHL) hockey consisted of just 6 teams!

I do believe the Winnipeg Jets of Hull, Nilsson, Hedberg, Sjoberg, could have competed (and did, in exhibition games) with any NHL team, even the great Canadiens teams of the mid to late 70's. What great hockey that would have been - Hull and the Jets vs. Lafleur and the Canadiens!

Hull is featured in the Greatest Sports Legends series (I have it on VHS, Hull in one half hour segment, Howe in the other! I don't see the Hull segment on youtube though). Hull was asked about how good Winnipeg was, WHA vs. NHL, etc. His response went something like this: 'When the NHL teams came into town to play us... we just toyed with them.'

I have seen the same video that you mentioned. I have also attended a few of those NHL vs WHA exhibition games here in Winnipeg and it was just like Hull said in regards to the competition from the senior league. Unfortunately there will always be those who choose to underestimate how good the Jets of that era were. Any player that played in both leagues would tell you how exceptional the Hot Line was and how difficult it was to play against them due to their unique style of play and their speed. It is too bad that the Jets challenge to the Canadiens in 1976 went unanswered following both teams championships. It would have been one hell of a series for sure. I feel bad that NHL fans didn't get the chance to see the Winnipeg Jets during those years as they missed the opportunity to witness one of the most exciting teams in hockey history.

 

[Killion]

It is too bad that the Jets challenge to the Canadiens in 1976 went unanswered following both teams championships. It would have been one hell of a series for sure. I feel bad that NHL fans didn't get the chance to see the Winnipeg Jets during those years as they missed the opportunity to witness one of the most exciting teams in hockey history.

Oh indeed. One of the greatest lines in the history of the game. I looked upon the WHA at that time not so much as an "inferior league" to the NHL but more as "a different brand of hockey". Yes in some respects "inferior" while in others "superior", and you simply cannot just "discount" or "forget about" the fact that they did have a winning record in exhibitions vs NHL clubs, played admirably Internationally. My opinion hasnt changed over the years. Mistake to underestimate, belittle & marginalize. Unfair, disingenuous.

Tonne of really decent players in the WHA. Never understood the trash talking. Not buying. I saw it. Played against a number of the younger Phenoms who'd signed early with WHA clubs. It was wide-open, an exciting & entertaining game. Never boring.... Of note as well, AHL Cleveland in the 50's, its own farm system etc, league champs after being jacked around by the NHL pursuant to Expansion also "Challenged" the NHL to a Stanley Cup showdown. They too rebuffed, denied the opportunity.

QUESTION: I'm looking at that picture up there of Bobby, noting the curve on his blade which is clearly a lot more than the regulated 1/2" the NHL mandated..... I cant recall, but did the WHA not have a similar Rule?... Very likely they waived it what with Hull being the marquee player, accommodating his wishes. "Anything goes". Wouldnt surprise me. Player friendly league. Of course, getting paid could be a problem depending on where you were. The KHL with similar stories in more recent times (and they too rebuffed by the NHL in seeking Exhibition All Star vs All Star game formats)...

 

[DowntownBooster]

QUESTION: I'm looking at that picture up there of Bobby, noting the curve on his blade which is clearly a lot more than the regulated 1/2" the NHL mandated..... I cant recall, but did the WHA not have a similar Rule?... Very likely they waived it what with Hull being the marquee player, accommodating his wishes. "Anything goes". Wouldnt surprise me. Player friendly league. Of course, getting paid could be a problem depending on where you were. The KHL with similar stories in more recent times (and they too rebuffed by the NHL in seeking Exhibition All Star vs All Star game formats)...

I'm going off memory here but I believe the curve on Hull's stick was one and half inches when he played for the Jets. I do not think there was a rule limiting the curve on a stick. At the time, even Hull thought there should have been some sort of limit since some players in the league could not control their shots due to the curves.

 

[Fenway]

I only saw one NHL-WHA game in person in 1977 and it was a farce.

The Bruins were sending a message that night as the game was seen on WSBK-TV38 which by then was seen all over the Northeast US and most of Canada on cable. I can still remember how quiet the Hartford Civic Center was with the exception of the Bruins fans in attendance.

 

[DowntownBooster]

I only saw one NHL-WHA game in person in 1977 and it was a farce.

The Bruins were sending a message that night as the game was seen on WSBK-TV38 which by then was seen all over the Northeast US and most of Canada on cable. I can still remember how quiet the Hartford Civic Center was with the exception of the Bruins fans in attendance.

It's unfortunate that you didn't see any of the other NHL-WHA games involving the New England Whalers in 1977. Here they are for reference:

New England Whalers 2, Chicago Black Hawks 2
New England Whalers 5, Washington Capitals 4
New England Whalers 7, New York Rangers 4
New England Whalers 5, Atlanta Flames 4
New England Whalers 9, Pittsburgh Penguins 0
New England Whalers 4, Atlanta Flames 3

Whalers record including loss to Boston: 5 - 1 - 1

If Boston was able to beat New England 5-0, they must have easily handled the other NHL teams that the Whalers defeated. Incidentally, this would be the season where New England played the Winnipeg Jets in the Avco Cup finals but lost 4 games to 0.

 

[Killion]

I only saw one NHL-WHA game in person in 1977 and it was a farce.

... Fenway?.... plz. ... the Whalers had beaten the Rangers the night before.... and how many times have you seen one of two (the Whale modestly competitive in comparison to the Bruins) teams completely collapse early in a game when they fall behind by a few or four goals?.... Happens frequently.... At least it was only 5-0 so not a complete meltdown.

 

[Fenway]

If Boston was able to beat New England 5-0, they must have easily handled the other NHL teams that the Whalers defeated. Incidentally, this would be the season where New England played the Winnipeg Jets in the Avco Cup finals but lost 4 games to 0.

The Bruins of that era were the second best team in the NHL, they simply could not beat Montreal.

 

[Fenway]

... Fenway?.... plz. ... the Whalers had beaten the Rangers the night before.... and how many times have you seen one of two (the Whale modestly competitive in comparison to the Bruins) teams completely collapse early in a game when they fall behind by a few or four goals?.... Happens frequently.... At least it was only 5-0 so not a complete meltdown.

Bruins had played the night before as well in Rochester and then BUSSED to Hartford while the Whalers were at home.

The Bruins led 5-0 after 1 - nobody expected that.

https://imgur.com/NbGEZjj

 

[Killion]

The Bruins led 5-0 after 1 - nobody expected that.

... well... did it not occur to you sitting comfortably in your seat.... watching one of your own in Cap Raeder getting destroyed that maybe you shouldve taken matters into your own hands?... jumped the glass & laid a smackdown on Brad Park after he buried that 35 footer behind the Pride of Needham MA?.... 3rd goal... followed by a 4th less than a minute later that you, yes you Fenway could have prevented... changed the whole momentum of the game, filled the Whalers sails.... stormed back...

 

[Crosbyfan]

Jumped the Glass?

... well... did it not occur to you sitting comfortably in your seat.... watching one of your own in Cap Raeder getting destroyed that maybe you shouldve taken matters into your own hands?... jumped the glass & laid a smackdown on Brad Park after he buried that 35 footer behind the Pride of Needham MA?.... 3rd goal... followed by a 4th less than a minute later that you, yes you Fenway could have prevented... changed the whole momentum of the game, filled the Whalers sails.... stormed back...

With Milbury coming the other way...shoe in hand? Fenway would certainly have had his work cut out for him...

 

[tony d]

Hard to say, maybe so he could retire as a Blackhawk? I really don't know. As to where he played his best hockey I'll always say Chicago though he had some good years with Winnipeg as well.

 

[Killion]

... heres Bobby Hull himself, app 40min video on the NHL, the WHA...www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBXnVYNJN2o&t=1107s ... well worth the watch.

 

[DowntownBooster]

... heres Bobby Hull himself, app 40min video on the NHL, the WHA...www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBXnVYNJN2o&t=1107s ... well worth the watch.

Thanks for posting the link Killion. It was great to relive the memories as Bobby talked about some of the events in his career. I also enjoyed watching the old footage of him playing. It's hard to believe how many years have actually gone by as it sometimes seems like only yesterday that I was watching him play here in Winnipeg. Many fond memories!

 

[Killion]

Thanks for posting the link Killion. It was great to relive the memories as Bobby talked about some of the events in his career. I also enjoyed watching the old footage of him playing. It's hard to believe how many years have actually gone by as it sometimes seems like only yesterday that I was watching him play here in Winnipeg. Many fond memories!

Quite welcome & yes, I too enjoyed watching that one. There are actually quite a few youtube clips & video's of Hull, from interviews to playing highlights, commercials etc.... and a strange one, dramatization, Hull playing himself but as a Coach working with the the father of one of his players, the father self absorbed, obsessed with his career, not spending enough time with his son the budding hockey star, Hull full of sage advice, like he's a paragon of virtue & fatherhood, good parenting. Ironic or what?... Quite the period piece too. Shot in Illinois, Im guessing around 69/70 or 70/71 perhaps.

And it was precisely because of films like that, his generosity with the fans & public, total lack of airs & pretension, really everyone thinking "wow, what a great guy" that it was so shocking & disappointing for so many when the revelations, sordid details of his personal life came out. Horrible. Tragic. He'll be remembered as much for what he did on the ice as what he did off it, a mix of very good to brilliant (every player playing when he signed with the WHA & thereafter owes him a HUGE THANK$ & debt of gratitude) to really bad, cruel, despicable. I have no doubt booze & very likely post concussion syndrome playing a huge part in all of it but that doesnt excuse him, no free passes. First time #### like that went down he shouldve sought help. Such a shame.

 

[Howie Hodge]

Thank you for the information Killion. I'm guessing you are about the only one here who would know who Gary Hull is, relative to his career.

I was personally hoping to see Hully play with Hedberg and Nilsson with The Rangers.

I still dream about what could have been there.....

 

[tmmr]

I would say that if you adjust for age, Hull's talents were best used in Winnipeg (in the Nilsson-Hedberg years) vs. his years in Chicago. The Hawks should have won more than one Stanley Cup in the Hull era. In my opinion the coaching, management, and ownership in Chicago fell short. The team rode on Hull's back (Glenn Hall's too) for much of that time, while not finding linemates to truly complement his skills, as happened in Winnipeg.

Another example would be the defensive shadows that plagued Hull during most of the 60's. No other player before or since was shadowed as relentlessly, and yet Hull was so potent he still managed to lead the league in goals 7 times. A really smart coach would have tried to counter and neutralize that, maybe by putting Mikita on the same line with Hull, but that was rarely done.

So in terms of maximizing the skills Hull had at a particular age, both for his and the team's benefit, I would rate Winnipeg ahead of Chicago.

 

[Killion]

Thank you for the information Killion. I'm guessing you are about the only one here who would know who Gary Hull is, relative to his career.

I was personally hoping to see Hully play with Hedberg and Nilsson with The Rangers.

I still dream about what could have been there.....

Yes, the forgotten brother, Gary Hull. He only went as far as Senior as a player (Coached in the AJHL years later as well I believe). According to Dennis Hull, he was potentially the best of the 3 of them & claimed Gary's shot was even harder & faster than Bobby's.... one of Dennis's oft repeated jokes was that Bobby could fire a puck through a car wash & it wouldnt even get wet whereas Dennis's wouldnt even hit the car wash.... Always intrigued by Dennis Hull's suggestion, opinion, that if Gary was better than Bobby, skating, playmaking, stickhandling & shooting etc, what the heck happened to him? Why didnt he pursue a pro career? Surely the Scouts mustve' been absolutely drooling....

And yes, completely agree. Bobby I'm sure had plenty of hockey left in him. Such a shame his final departure from the game transpired in the way it did. Not in the least bit impressed with Brooks & the Rangers. Oh, I understand why what happened happened and it was just wrong, stupidity. Ego's involved. Brooks supposedly the next best thing to Wonderbread riding the wave following the Miracle on Ice. An overrated genius in the same mold as Ned Harkness was a decade earlier in Detroit. Outstanding NCAA Coach sure enough but those tactics dont work in Major Junior, the Pro game. To cast aside a player like Hull in the name of collegial precepts & tactics at the NHL level?... Yeah, dont think so, and no thanks.... Reminds me a bit of Gretzky & Robbie Ftorek. Ftorek a "teacher" essentially, good with the kids, Rookies. Gretzky becoming impatient with it, telling him after yet another practice & lecture, Hockey 101 "thats all well & fine Robbie but were here to win a Cup".

I would say that if you adjust for age, Hull's talents were best used in Winnipeg (in the Nilsson-Hedberg years) vs. his years in Chicago. The Hawks should have won more than one Stanley Cup in the Hull era. In my opinion the coaching, management, and ownership in Chicago fell short. The team rode on Hull's back (Glenn Hall's too) for much of that time, while not finding linemates to truly complement his skills, as happened in Winnipeg.

Another example would be the defensive shadows that plagued Hull during most of the 60's. No other player before or since was shadowed as relentlessly, and yet Hull was so potent he still managed to lead the league in goals 7 times. A really smart coach would have tried to counter and neutralize that, maybe by putting Mikita on the same line with Hull, but that was rarely done.

So in terms of maximizing the skills Hull had at a particular age, both for his and the team's benefit, I would rate Winnipeg ahead of Chicago.

Well said. And as I posted just above its a shame we didnt get to see Hull reunited with his Jets linemates in NY as I truly believe that had we, then your hypothesis, theory, what would have occurred & transpired would have absolutely solidified your case even at Hull's then advanced age for at least a couple of seasons. The Short-Shift Game was really beginning to take hold by the mid 80's so I could also see a situation whereby Hull's effectiveness would have begun to erode, just the natural aging process, he'd be slowing down. But ya, I think for sure early to mid-80's he still wouldve been quite the force out there.

 

[Vintage hockey]

Bobby Hull spent his first 15 seasons in the NHL representing one of the Original Six franchises in the Chicago Blackhawks where he won the 1960-61 Stanley Cup at 22 years old. By the time he left the Blackhawks and the NHL after 1971-72, the elder Hull joined the WHA where he found a home with the Winnipeg Jets. Sure, Bobby Hull was a perennial All-Star caliber player in Chi-Town, but he only cracked the 100+ point mark once with them.

It wasn't until he moved to the WHA and the Winnipeg Jets that Bobby Hull had more seasons where he had 100+ points. He continued to be an All-Star caliber player for the Jets. It's debatable as to whether Bobby Hull had his best years and made the most impact. Some say his best years were with the Chicago Blackhawks where he played for the longest time at 15 seasons where he was a perennial All-Star, while others say his best years were with the Winnipeg Jets where he remained an All-Star type of player but more importantly, his best seasons in terms of individual statistics and numbers.

After the WHA was about to close and fold, Bobby Hull had no choice but to go back to the NHL after 1978-79, when the Chicago Blackhawks apparently took him back prior to 1979-80. You'd think he'd have a nice homecoming with the team he had his best team-oriented success with, but for some reason, he didn't don the Hawks jersey in '79-'80 as a 40 something year old guy. Instead, his old WHA team the Winnipeg Jets took him as WPG integrated into the NHL.

Either way, Bobby Hull did not last long with the newly NHL-integrated Winnipeg Jets in 1979-80 as he had 10 points in 18 games, and so he was dumped to another newly NHL-integrated team in the Hartford Whalers where he would team up with another fellow aging big name star Gordie Howe. Bobby Hull could've maintained his elite years, but instead, he couldn't even outperform a 51-52 year old Howe despite being a decade younger than him, and despite Howe not being what he used to be.

Bobby Hull finished his NHL career as a member of the Whalers, when he could've fittingly retired as a member of the Chicago Blackhawks in 1979-80, which would've marked his first season with the team since 1971-72.

Why did Chicago even reclaim him with the understanding that he would never play a single game with the team in 1979-80?

To say that Bobby Hull didn’t break the 100 point barrier as if it’s a knock makes no sense he led the league in Goals 7 times and did win the scoring titles and MVPs Bobb Hull quite simply was the best player of the 60’s in the NHL, he was also the first second and third player to break the 50 goal
Mark a historical accomplishment . While Bobby continued to be a dominant player in the WHA and lead team Canada in goals in 74 and 76 he was still sensational . He had actually retired as a Jet in the 78-79,and had some injuries to wrist and shoulder , he was coaxed out of retirement by his son , and also made it known that he wanted to finish his career in the US, unfortunately a deal could not be reached so he came back to the Jets . Don’t forget he was also a part owner of the Jets. In the end he had a falling out with Mcvie and Ferguson and left the team , Ferguevtrades him to Hartford . It would have been fitting for him to have finished his career in Chicago , and yes he was still productive ..somewhere around this time his girlfriend was seriously injured in an car accident and again he retired to take care of her . He made an attempt to come back I’m New York and by all accounts was very good but Brooks didn’t want him and saw him as a potential distraction Bobby Hull at 40 was a better player than Howe at 50 which is still very good

 

[Killion]

To say that Bobby Hull didn’t break the 100 point barrier as if it’s a knock makes no sense he led the league in Goals 7 times and did win the scoring titles and MVPs Bobb Hull quite simply was the best player of the 60’s in the NHL, he was also the first second and third player to break the 50 goal
Mark a historical accomplishment . While Bobby continued to be a dominant player in the WHA and lead team Canada in goals in 74 and 76 he was still sensational . He had actually retired as a Jet in the 78-79,and had some injuries to wrist and shoulder , he was coaxed out of retirement by his son , and also made it known that he wanted to finish his career in the US, unfortunately a deal could not be reached so he came back to the Jets . Don’t forget he was also a part owner of the Jets. In the end he had a falling out with Mcvie and Ferguson and left the team , Ferguevtrades him to Hartford . It would have been fitting for him to have finished his career in Chicago , and yes he was still productive ..somewhere around this time his girlfriend was seriously injured in an car accident and again he retired to take care of her . He made an attempt to come back I’m New York and by all accounts was very good but Brooks didn’t want him and saw him as a potential distraction Bobby Hull at 40 was a better player than Howe at 50 which is still very good

Respectful post. Appreciate it.

 

[FerrisRox]

I guess in your discussions with all the former players of the WHA that you talked to, you probably didn't come across Gordie Howe. He believed the Houston Aeros would have been a top 6 team in the NHL.

I was lucky enough to speak at great length with Gordie Howe about his time in the WHA and his subsequent return to the National Hockey League with the Whalers.

Out of respect to Mr. Howe, and the off-the-record nature of the conversation I won't get into detail about what he had to say other than he was very much one of the people I spoke with when I say "to a man" they felt the league was obviously inferior.