Why Did Butch Goring Win The Conn Smythe In 1981?

GlitchMarner

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He was the fourth-leading scorer on his own team and each of Bossy, Trottier and Potvin had a much better plus/minus rating. I'm sure Trottier played harder minutes and find it hard to believe Goring played better two-way hockey.

What was the rationale for giving him the Smythe? Did he get it because he was considered a key addition and/or the guy the finally put the Islanders over the top? Was he very clutch?
 

MeHateHe

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He was pretty much the inspirational leader on that team. The stats may not show it but he carried that team; I think that he benefited from the talent gap between himself and Bossy and Trottier, in that the writers saw a guy who played way above himself. He scored, killed penalties and was an overall force throughout those playoffs. I was young at the time, but I remember thinking that was the right choice. (Although I'm sure I was influenced by the announcers saying it was the right choice.)
 
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Doctor No

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Minneapolis Star 1981-05-22.jpg

This is what Doug Grow (beat writer for the opposing North Stars) felt about Goring.
 
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Big Phil

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Another thing to note, he had 5 goals in the final. He had a hat trick and then in the clinching Game 5 had two goals. I know people look at Bossy with 35 points and Goring having 20 and wonder. However, Bossy had 8 points in the final, while Goring had 7. Maybe it was a lasting impression combined with his two-way play that helped? Bossy had 21 of his 35 points in the first two rounds vs. Toronto and Edmonton, neither great teams at that point.

Same with Potvin. He had 25 points. How can a defenseman who is known for his elite two-way play lose the Smythe over a two-way forward who scored 20? Well, I think a lot of it has to do with things like voter fatigue and Potvin already winning a few Norrises. But the main reason was, just like Bossy, Potvin had his big numbers earlier on in the playoffs. He feasted on Toronto and Edmonton. Still did well later on of course, but I just think it was Goring making the lasting impression in the final.

One thing that gets overlooked is that Trottier had 29 points as well. Here is the kicker, while he did explode against the Leafs in Round 1 (10 points in 3 games) he got a point in every single postseason game. To me, he is just as big of a "snub" - if not more - than either Bossy or Potvin that year. That's remarkable consistency and Trottier had the all around game as well. But with him winning it in 1980, I honestly think they were looking for anyone else spiking at the right time, so while Goring played well, I think those factors also helped him win.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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One thing that gets overlooked is that Trottier had 29 points as well. Here is the kicker, while he did explode against the Leafs in Round 1 (10 points in 3 games) he got a point in every single postseason game. To me, he is just as big of a "snub" - if not more - than either Bossy or Potvin that year. That's remarkable consistency and Trottier had the all around game as well. But with him winning it in 1980, I honestly think they were looking for anyone else spiking at the right time, so while Goring played well, I think those factors also helped him win.

raises an interesting question: if voters could do it over, knowing that the oilers would take over in 84, would they change the conn smythes to potvin in 80 (nine points in the finals, including the game one or winner, actually besting trottier in goals and points), trots in 81, and keep bossy in 82, and smith in 83?
 

JackSlater

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I've never seen a compelling argument for Goring over Potvin. Before being jumped, no, that does not mean that I think that Goring wasn't valuable or even great in those playoffs. Subjective trophies just have wonky results sometimes, it happens.
 

Big Phil

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raises an interesting question: if voters could do it over, knowing that the oilers would take over in 84, would they change the conn smythes to potvin in 80 (nine points in the finals, including the game one or winner, actually besting trottier in goals and points), trots in 81, and keep bossy in 82, and smith in 83?

Yeah, maybe. It is weird with Potvin, he is arguably the best playoff performer to never win the Conn Smythe yet he'd win a poll when it comes down to who was the "glue" on that dynasty. I don't know if it is a travesty that he never won one or if it just shows you how great those Islanders teams were. Either way, it goes against the norm. The best player in the Oilers dynasty was Gretzky and he won two. Lafleur for the Habs, he wins one and like Gretzky could have won 4. Orr wins both for the Bruins. Lemieux for the Pens. Malkin and Crosby have won three combined. Yzerman won his. No doubt Howe or Richard have their name on that trophy at least once. All of Keith, Toews and Kane won. Yet Potvin didn't, go figure. The closest argument can be Fedorov for having not won one despite being in the mix every year. Although the argument probably still favours Yzerman for being the most important.
 

crobro

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I think the talk at the time was how much of a missing link Goring was before the deadline trade in 79-80 and how much he was responsible for putting the isles over the top.it was more of a playoff masterson award more then anything else.
 
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The Panther

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Sometimes the "narrative" behind these awards changes with time. My impression is that in the late-70s-to-late-80s, there was kind of a thing where voters wanted to give certain awards (like the Conn Smythe) to "non-obvious" players. This was also before advanced-stats and the Internet, BUT there were a lot of teams and not all voters could watch all the teams' games, and consequently the "media narratives" were more powerful than now. If a media narrative got built up at just the right time, it could swing a vote towards a certain player.

For example: So powerful were the Habs by 1978 that Montreal newspapers not only predicted they'd win again in 1979, but also stated that Bob Gainey should win the Conn Smythe (they said this before the playoffs in 1979 even started). After Montreal won the Cup, who got the Conn Smythe? Bob Gainey.

With idiots like Stan Fischler on their anti-Gretzky crusade c.1983, the best those creaking fossils could hope for was that a rugged old-school Howe-like player, such as Messier, could win the Conn Smythe in 1984. (Not saying Messier didn't deserve it, but the media narrative helped that out.)

And I think Big Phil brings up a good point about the Finals. To me, the Conn Smythe should be a player who performed really, really well -- maybe the best on either team -- in the Finals. Not to dismiss the earlier three rounds, which are certainly under consideration, but the Finals is where it counts. The Finals is also, in some cases (more so in the 70s/80s), the only round some media-watchers saw a certain team play. I mean, did Vancouver media writers really watch all the Islanders-Rangers first-round games in the late 70s/early-80s, which started at 4:30 pm in Vancouver when they were still at the office, and mostly weren't broadcast on local TV? Did Stan Fischler really watch all the Kings / Canucks / Oilers / Flames games in the early-80s, which started at 10:00pm in New York when Fischler was taking his Metamucil and going to bed?

The culture of these awards has changed since, maybe, the Gretzky trade forward, as the League has become very corporate. Everybody can watch or re-watch all the games now, the complex stats are instantly available, and the League in general seems desperate to give awards to the biggest name players rather than giving unique selections to players that raised their play in the Finals, like Goring did in 1981.
 
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c9777666

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Yeah, maybe. It is weird with Potvin, he is arguably the best playoff performer to never win the Conn Smythe yet he'd win a poll when it comes down to who was the "glue" on that dynasty. I don't know if it is a travesty that he never won one or if it just shows you how great those Islanders teams were. Either way, it goes against the norm. The best player in the Oilers dynasty was Gretzky and he won two. Lafleur for the Habs, he wins one and like Gretzky could have won 4. Orr wins both for the Bruins. Lemieux for the Pens. Malkin and Crosby have won three combined. Yzerman won his. No doubt Howe or Richard have their name on that trophy at least once. All of Keith, Toews and Kane won. Yet Potvin didn't, go figure. The closest argument can be Fedorov for having not won one despite being in the mix every year. Although the argument probably still favours Yzerman for being the most important.

Unlike a lot of other NHL hardware, it should be noted that the Conn Smythe is relatively young- Hart/Vezina Trophies have been around since the 1920s, Norris since the 1950s, Art Ross in the late 40s.

In its first few years (1965-1967) it was handed out to when the Cup champ only had to win 8 games at the tail end of the Original Six era before the playoffs were expanded following the ‘67 expansion.

I mean, who knows how many Conn Smythe winners the Red Wings/Habs of the 50s night have had and how even more decorated those guys’ trophy cases would have been.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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joe nieuwendyk, claude lemieux, and justin williams have conn smythes so it’s not like butch goring is some kind of crazy anomaly.
 
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Thenameless

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Another thing to note, he had 5 goals in the final. He had a hat trick and then in the clinching Game 5 had two goals. I know people look at Bossy with 35 points and Goring having 20 and wonder. However, Bossy had 8 points in the final, while Goring had 7. Maybe it was a lasting impression combined with his two-way play that helped? Bossy had 21 of his 35 points in the first two rounds vs. Toronto and Edmonton, neither great teams at that point.

Same with Potvin. He had 25 points. How can a defenseman who is known for his elite two-way play lose the Smythe over a two-way forward who scored 20? Well, I think a lot of it has to do with things like voter fatigue and Potvin already winning a few Norrises. But the main reason was, just like Bossy, Potvin had his big numbers earlier on in the playoffs. He feasted on Toronto and Edmonton. Still did well later on of course, but I just think it was Goring making the lasting impression in the final.

One thing that gets overlooked is that Trottier had 29 points as well. Here is the kicker, while he did explode against the Leafs in Round 1 (10 points in 3 games) he got a point in every single postseason game. To me, he is just as big of a "snub" - if not more - than either Bossy or Potvin that year. That's remarkable consistency and Trottier had the all around game as well. But with him winning it in 1980, I honestly think they were looking for anyone else spiking at the right time, so while Goring played well, I think those factors also helped him win.

Geez, it sounds like a more of a 4-way tie to me than anything else. Truly a Stanley Cup run with 4 great performances.
 

Staniowski

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Yeah, maybe. It is weird with Potvin, he is arguably the best playoff performer to never win the Conn Smythe yet he'd win a poll when it comes down to who was the "glue" on that dynasty. I don't know if it is a travesty that he never won one or if it just shows you how great those Islanders teams were. Either way, it goes against the norm. The best player in the Oilers dynasty was Gretzky and he won two. Lafleur for the Habs, he wins one and like Gretzky could have won 4. Orr wins both for the Bruins. Lemieux for the Pens. Malkin and Crosby have won three combined. Yzerman won his. No doubt Howe or Richard have their name on that trophy at least once. All of Keith, Toews and Kane won. Yet Potvin didn't, go figure. The closest argument can be Fedorov for having not won one despite being in the mix every year. Although the argument probably still favours Yzerman for being the most important.

I agree that Potvin was the best of the Islanders, but I've always thought his best years were in the late '70s. In fact, I think at times in the late '70s, he was the best player in the NHL. He was dominant at the '76 Canada Cup.

During the Cup years he was still a great player overall, just not quite at the level he was in previous years. I think during the latter parts of the Cup wins that he was noticeably slower.

Those Islanders teams had, of course, the Big 4 stars (including Battlin' Billy), but they also had a lot of other very good players who shone brightly at various times, including Gillies, Goring, Bourne, the Sutters, Persson, Tonelli, etc. They were a great all-around team.

I was always very impressed by the Islanders. This team went to at least the semis 9 times in a 10 year period.

I don't remember it being a "travesty" that he didn't win any Smythes, but I'm sure he easily could have won one or two of them.
 

a79krgm

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Game 3 is why. The North Stars coming back to the Met Center threw everything at the Islanders that night. The home team led 2-1 after one. Goring gets 3 goals and Gilles, Nystrom and Tonelli never let up. The Islanders win 7-5 and effectively end the young North Stars hopes for a Cup.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

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and the League in general seems desperate to give awards to the biggest name players rather than giving unique selections to players that raised their play in the Finals, like Goring did in 1981.

Crosby got the last two and that certainly fits what you're saying..but Justin Williams won in 2014 as arguably perhaps the 6th best known skater on the team (behind Kopitar, Doughty, Carter, Richards and Gaborik) . He did have a great playoff but so did Kopitar, Doughty and Co. I would guess that Williams leading the Finals in scoring with 7 points (and scoring 2 important goals) gave him the edge.

Justin Williams' win thus certainly seems to be a "Butch Goring"-type Smythe.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Crosby got the last two and that certainly fits what you're saying..but Justin Williams won in 2014 as arguably perhaps the 6th best known skater on the team (behind Kopitar, Doughty, Carter, Richards and Gaborik) . He did have a great playoff but so did Kopitar, Doughty and Co. I would guess that Williams leading the Finals in scoring with 7 points (and scoring 2 important goals) gave him the edge.

Justin Williams' win thus certainly seems to be a "Butch Goring"-type Smythe.

from what i'm reading, i would say nieuwendyk is probably the best comparison here. obviously both were centers. but both also were veterans nearing the end of their primes who did veteran two-way player stuff while still scoring at very good 2C levels. both were obviously not as good as the team's superstar first line center, and both were probably all told the fifth most important player on their respective teams in their conn smythe years and got a lot of mileage out of timely scoring and big games.

but i'm willing to listen if anyone who was there wants to tell me goring was way better than '99 nieuwendyk.
 

AmericanDream

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I've never seen a compelling argument for Goring over Potvin. Before being jumped, no, that does not mean that I think that Goring wasn't valuable or even great in those playoffs. Subjective trophies just have wonky results sometimes, it happens.

not directed at you Jack, but can anyone explain to me why Denis Potvin played 5 full seasons in the OHL? Was that the norm back then? Most guys I have looked back at never played more than 3-4...
 

JackSlater

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not directed at you Jack, but can anyone explain to me why Denis Potvin played 5 full seasons in the OHL? Was that the norm back then? Most guys I have looked back at never played more than 3-4...

If this isn't correct then someone can feel free to correct me. The NHL draft used to only feature players who had aged out of junior (basically 20 year olds) until the Ken Linseman lawsuit basically forced the draft to accept 18 year olds. As for why Potvin played five years while most top juniors played fewer years, I assume that is mostly a reflection of how good Potvin was even as a 15 year old. Most of his top contemporaries were still in lower leagues when Potvin began his junior career.
 
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tarheelhockey

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joe nieuwendyk, claude lemieux, and justin williams have conn smythes so it’s not like butch goring is some kind of crazy anomaly.

I think the closest comparable here is Williams. With Nieuwendyk and Lemieux it's pretty easy to make statistical arguments about their playoff goals and points. With Goring and Williams, it's more about the timing of those goals, the "clutch" factor that drives some people crazy in retrospect but makes perfect sense when you're watching in real time.
 

Killion

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If this isn't correct then someone can feel free to correct me. The NHL draft used to only feature players who had aged out of junior (basically 20 year olds) until the Ken Linseman lawsuit basically forced the draft to accept 18 year olds. As for why Potvin played five years while most top juniors played fewer years, I assume that is mostly a reflection of how good Potvin was even as a 15 year old. Most of his top contemporaries were still in lower leagues when Potvin began his junior career.

You got it. :thumbu:
 

Jumptheshark

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He was the fourth-leading scorer on his own team and each of Bossy, Trottier and Potvin had a much better plus/minus rating. I'm sure Trottier played harder minutes and find it hard to believe Goring played better two-way hockey.

What was the rationale for giving him the Smythe? Did he get it because he was considered a key addition and/or the guy the finally put the Islanders over the top? Was he very clutch?


They do not win without him. Whenever the team was on their back skate--Arbour tossed going on the ice and he changed the game. No fear attitude, key face off wins and refused to die.

There is a reason why at EVERY deadline day--all talking heads bring him up as the prime example of how a trade on deadline day can win the cup
 

VanIslander

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You're up 2-0 in games and have to play Games 3 and 4 in the opposition's building, and your star center and star defenseman are playing injured, and your 2nd line center comes up with a HAT TRICK in Game 3 on enemy ice, then 2 more goals in Game 4 to end the series, to the relief of your coach and to the benefit of the ailing club that really needed the clutch scoring.

That's partially why Goring won the Conn Smythe over Bossy.

 

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