Why can't XO get in a game?

[Run the Jewels]

Getting any NHL games at all out of a 5th round pick is a success, arguing anything else is lunacy.

Yes, because Kindl and Smith were such rousing successes!

 

[kliq]

Yes, because Kindl and Smith were such rousing successes!

I dont understand how saying that getting NHL Games played out a 5th round player is the same as calling Kindl/Smith a success?

Smith and Kindl were flops, I think we can all agree on that. Getting a guy 5th round who makes the roster, should on most accounts be considered a success....no?

Lets try to take the Wings/Holland out the equation here.

 

[AHall88]

Yes, because Kindl and Smith were such rousing successes!

I didn't realize Kindl and Smith were 5th rounders, learn something new everyday I guess.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I guess, but is he in the NHL because he is actually good enough to be in the NHL? Or is it because Holland has failed to put a decent defensive unit together?

If our defense was in decent shape would either XO or Jensen be in the lineup? I personally think not.



I agree

I would argue that the bottom end of our D really isn’t bad. If we had an elite 1st pairing I’d take guys like XO and Jensen to fill out the 3rd pairing any day. The problem for us isn’t that the wrong guy plays #5 or #6D, it’s that we have no one that can be considered a top-pairing D and not much in terms of guys fit for a 2nd pairing either.

 

[Winger98]

If we had a legit top pairing guy (or two, if we want to be really decadent) then it would also shift everyone down at least a notch and XO/Jensen off the team entirely. Which is what we really want.

+/- isn't the best stat, but Jensen stands out in a very bad way on our team with it. He's averaged less than 16 minutes a night this season and is -11. Granted, Green and Kronwall are worse, but they also eat a few more minutes and are generally given tougher tasks. On the other end, Ericsson is -3. Daley and Dekeyser are -4. All three of those guys eat around 20 minutes a night. They get some flak, sometimes a lot, but they've done well at least not getting owned on a nightly basis. And XO? A -3 on the year. While people want to jump on him flubbing that puck the other night, he clearly hasn't been burned most nights.

 

[Goalie guy]

I would argue that the bottom end of our D really isn’t bad. If we had an elite 1st pairing I’d take guys like XO and Jensen to fill out the 3rd pairing any day. The problem for us isn’t that the wrong guy plays #5 or #6D, it’s that we have no one that can be considered a top-pairing D and not much in terms of guys fit for a 2nd pairing either.

This is the problem with the whole team not just the back end. We are a team full of good 3rd and 4th line players, no real 1st or 2nd line players. We have Z who was a very good player and that's it. Kronwall was a good 2nd 3rd line guy but was never ever going to be a true 1st pair guy. None of the kids project to be 1st line players, Larks and AA 2nd and 3rd line centers, Mantha/Fraz light 2nd at best. Helm is a bust, Abby is a 4th line player. Gus should be a 3rd line guy everyone one this team is being asked to play above where they should be. I don't see this being a short rebuild at all.

 

[Henkka]

Kronwall was a good 2nd 3rd line guy but was never ever going to be a true 1st pair guy.

Kronwall was TOP 10 point-producing decenfeman after Lidstrom retired, from 2012-13 season to 2014-15. If that's not a 1st pair guy, I wonder what a heck is?

Then he started to regress, mostly cause of injuries. He was a true 1st defenceman on that time, and could have been earlier, without Lidström on the team.

People just seem to remember him as this crippled knee-injury guy and forget all the great years. On Lidström's final years, Kronwall-Stuart was the shut-down pair and Lidström got easier offensive minutes. Also that seems to be been already forgotten.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Kronwall was TOP 10 point-producing decenfeman after Lidstrom retired, from 2012-13 season to 2014-15. If that's not a 1st pair guy, I wonder what a heck is?

Then he started to regress, mostly cause of injuries. He was a true 1st defenceman on that time, and could have been earlier, without Lidström on the team.

People just seem to remember him as this crippled knee-injury guy and forget all the great years. On Lidström's final years, Kronwall-Stuart was the shut-down pair and Lidström got easier offensive minutes. Also that seems to be been already forgotten.

I think part of it is also that when you have Lidstrom on the team for 20 years and the #1 Dman for the bulk of that time, you can get a skewed idea of what a #1 Dman is.

Kronwall wasn't Lidstrom, but he was a legit #1 guy and as you mention would've been earlier had one of the top 5 dmen in history not been on his team.

 

[Dotter]

This is the problem with the whole team not just the back end. We are a team full of good 3rd and 4th line players, no real 1st or 2nd line players. We have Z who was a very good player and that's it. Kronwall was a good 2nd 3rd line guy but was never ever going to be a true 1st pair guy. None of the kids project to be 1st line players, Larks and AA 2nd and 3rd line centers, Mantha/Fraz light 2nd at best. Helm is a bust, Abby is a 4th line player. Gus should be a 3rd line guy everyone one this team is being asked to play above where they should be. I don't see this being a short rebuild at all.

Do 40 point players often play on the 4th line? Sounds like something you'd expect of 2001/2002 era hockey to me. I think your analys is out of touch with reality.

 

[Henkka]

I think part of it is also that when you have Lidstrom on the team for 20 years and the #1 Dman for the bulk of that time, you can get a skewed idea of what a #1 Dman is.

Kronwall wasn't Lidstrom, but he was a legit #1 guy and as you mention would've been earlier had one of the top 5 dmen in history not been on his team.

Yep. Kronwall's prime started already at 2007-08 season, and affected heavily to our success, because with him we also had great 2nd pairing. But when there's better defencemen in front, it just goes that way for a single individual. He doesn't look for a true 1st. It's like Nashville now, all of Subban, Josi, Ellis or Ekholm could be 1st pair defencemen elsewhere. When Kronwall finally got that 1st role, he was alreay 31-year old, so coming a little bit past his prime. Still managed well.

Kronwall wasn't the problem after Lidström was gone. Problem was that there was no replacement for Kronwall on the 2nd pair, when he was promoted to 1st duty. Depth in defence disappeared, thanks to Jim Nill failed drafting after the Jiri Fischer-case. Kindl, Smith, Ouellet, Sproul etc. fail after fail.

Fischer could have been carrying the defence with Kronwall easily for a decade until ~2015. Take the shut-down load off from Kronwall and Kronner could have been matched to offense. BTW, Fischer is only 37-year old at the moment.

 

[Goalie guy]

Do 40 point players often play on the 4th line? Sounds like something you'd expect of 2001/2002 era hockey to me. I think your analys is out of touch with reality.

I assume you are talking about Abby? he has had 2 40 point season in his career. Dont try and sell him as a 40 point player his average is a 20 point player. I fully expect a 4th line guy to get 20 points a season.

 

[Dotter]

I assume you are talking about Abby? he has had 2 40 point season in his career. Dont try and sell him as a 40 point player his average is a 20 point player. I fully expect a 4th line guy to get 20 points a season.

In his last 4 season's he put up 20 points once when the entire team failed to score points. He's on pace for 39 points this season (bottom 5 team season), and put up 42 and 44 points.

He's a 35-40 point guy. 4th liners are not 35-40 point guys. You're delusional.

 

[Goalie guy]

In his last 4 season's he put up 20 points once when the entire team failed to score points. He's on pace for 39 points this season (bottom 5 team season), and put up 42 and 44 points.

He's a 35-40 point guy. 4th liners are not 35-40 point guys. You're delusional.

0 0 19 22 13 28 44 42 21 32 that are his stats like it or not you are wrong. he has had more 20 and under seasons than 30 and over sorry bud. And lets not for get how long he played with Dat's putting pucks in off his ass.

 

[Dotter]

0 0 19 22 13 28 44 42 21 32 that are his stats like it or not you are wrong. he has had more 20 and under seasons than 30 and over sorry bud. And lets not for get how long he played with Dat's putting pucks in off his ass.

Yes you're right, he's a 20 point guy on the 4th line, and a proven 40 point guy in the top 6/9. Using your logic, you want him on the 4th line so he can be your 20 point guy so you can say you're right... when you're actually wrong.

He's currently scoring at roughly a 40 point pace in the top 9. But you want to talk about what he did 7 or 8 years ago on the 4th line. Streeeeeeetchhhhhhhhh..........harder.........reeeeeaachhhhh.....

 

[Goalie guy]

Yes you're right, he's a 20 point guy on the 4th line, and a proven 40 point guy in the top 6/9. Using your logic, you want him on the 4th line so he can be your 20 point guy so you can say you're right... when you're actually wrong.

He's currently scoring at roughly a 40 point pace in the top 9. But you want to talk about what he did 7 or 8 years ago on the 4th line. Streeeeeeetchhhhhhhhh..........harder.........reeeeeaachhhhh.....

Keep trying bud. I gave you the numbers and I am the one who wants to stretch? you want to stretch him into a top 6 guy and that's why we have the team we do. in 10 years he scored 40 2 times maybe even a 3td this year. 10 years 2 times over 30.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I dont understand how saying that getting NHL Games played out a 5th round player is the same as calling Kindl/Smith a success?

Smith and Kindl were flops, I think we can all agree on that. Getting a guy 5th round who makes the roster, should on most accounts be considered a success....no?

Lets try to take the Wings/Holland out the equation here.

I've been a Jensen fan, the larger point is our drafting and development has been crap, which is highlighted by the fact Jensen is playing big minutes. Not a knock on Jensen, much like I didn't knock Ericsson when he was getting first pairing minutes. It's an indictment of our drafting and development.

 

[kliq]

I've been a Jensen fan, the larger point is our drafting and development has been crap, which is highlighted by the fact Jensen is playing big minutes. Not a knock on Jensen, much like I didn't knock Ericsson when he was getting first pairing minutes. It's an indictment of our drafting and development.

If you are talking on D, I agree with you.

 

[SoupGuru]

Listen, if you throw out all the seasons that Abby has scored more that 20 points, he has NEVER scored over 20 points! Not even once! And what use is a player like that?

 

[kliq]

Yep. Kronwall's prime started already at 2007-08 season, and affected heavily to our success, because with him we also had great 2nd pairing. But when there's better defencemen in front, it just goes that way for a single individual. He doesn't look for a true 1st. It's like Nashville now, all of Subban, Josi, Ellis or Ekholm could be 1st pair defencemen elsewhere. When Kronwall finally got that 1st role, he was alreay 31-year old, so coming a little bit past his prime. Still managed well.

Kronwall wasn't the problem after Lidström was gone. Problem was that there was no replacement for Kronwall on the 2nd pair, when he was promoted to 1st duty. Depth in defence disappeared, thanks to Jim Nill failed drafting after the Jiri Fischer-case. Kindl, Smith, Ouellet, Sproul etc. fail after fail.

Fischer could have been carrying the defence with Kronwall easily for a decade until ~2015. Take the shut-down load off from Kronwall and Kronner could have been matched to offense. BTW, Fischer is only 37-year old at the moment.

Ya that was a sad situation, though it could have been a lot worse. Nice to see him doing well in the organization.