Why aren't losses factored into sorting teams in the standings?

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Nenikoj

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May 18, 2017
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Because sometimes a qualification is what matters.
Imagine a tournament: 2 ECHL teams, 10 amateur teams, 10 NHL teams. The ECHL teams do not play against each other, but play 61 games each against the NHL and 30 games against the amateurs. One team completed the tournament already and managed to squeeze 1 OTL against the NHL. The other only played the amateurs and beat them all, but still has 61 games against the NHLers where it's expected to go 0-61-0. The 30-60-1 team has an advantage over the 30-0-0 one.
It seems you're tailoring the argument so you don't have to admit that I have a very valid point. Did you not notice that when I first brought up this comparison I did say it was assumed that the games were all regular season NHL games. Therefore your answer is a straw man.

Let's say your job is to determine under which coach your team performed better. All you have is W-L-OTL numbers, but it can be assumed that all games were regular season NHL games. Under coach A, your team went 20-25-5 and under coach B, your team went 22-0-0. And scenario #2 with a larger sample size - under coach C, your team went 30-60-1 and under coach D, your team went 30-0-0. How would you go about determining under which coach your team did better? And in each scenario, under which coach would you say your team did better?


The points percentage is only really insightful when combined with the Buchholz and remaining strength coefficients.
I'll check that out on your website.

The one that is higher placed is usually closer to qualification.
Which one is closer to qualification - 23-24-1 or 22-21-1 and how do you define "closer". Which one is closer to disqualification (or not making the playoffs)? And does that matter less than being closer to qualification? If so, why?

I'd think you'd figure out by now. You can't "plug in" numbers in it. But you can understand what the Buchholz and the Sonneborn-Berger coefficients are:
http://morehockeystats.com/teams/buchberg
http://morehockeystats.blogspot.com/2017/03/on-buchholz-and-sonneborn-berger.html
http://morehockeystats.blogspot.com/2017/03/on-buchholz-and-sonneborn-berger_13.html

As I said, I'll plug those records into your website and see what it reports as the better record.
 

Nenikoj

Registered User
May 18, 2017
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This shows records after 82 games. That's irrelevant, as this discussion has to do with comparing records in which unequal # of games have been played.

Again, this has nothing to do with comparing records of different # of games played.


Again, this doesn't address the issue of discrepancies in games played.

I was hoping you'd have an interactive tool in which I could put in 23-24-1 and 22-21-1 and it would respond by showing which team was in a better position.

The answer is the 22-21-1 team is in a better position, as although they have one less win, the 23-24-1 team has three more losses. Unless it can be shown that one extra win more than offsets three extra losses, there is no way to demonstrate that 23-24-1 is a better record than 22-21-1.

But more to the point that losses are ignored. Since the NHL sorts by points, the 24 losses of the 23-24-1 team and the 21 losses of the 22-21-1 team are irrelevant values such that we are really comparing 23-x-1 vs. 22-y-1 where x and y don't need to be known. And since L results make up some 40% of results in NHL games, by using the points system to sort teams, you're ignoring some 40% of the results. Thus the NHL's point system is inferior to and reveals less information than the system used in NBA and MLB, as they use 100% of the results.
 

morehockeystats

Unusual hockey stats
Dec 13, 2016
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morehockeystats.com
This shows records after 82 games. That's irrelevant, as this discussion has to do with comparing records in which unequal # of games have been played.


Again, this has nothing to do with comparing records of different # of games played.



Again, this doesn't address the issue of discrepancies in games played.

I was hoping you'd have an interactive tool in which I could put in 23-24-1 and 22-21-1 and it would respond by showing which team was in a better position.

The answer is the 22-21-1 team is in a better position, as although they have one less win, the 23-24-1 team has three more losses. Unless it can be shown that one extra win more than offsets three extra losses, there is no way to demonstrate that 23-24-1 is a better record than 22-21-1.

But more to the point that losses are ignored. Since the NHL sorts by points, the 24 losses of the 23-24-1 team and the 21 losses of the 22-21-1 team are irrelevant values such that we are really comparing 23-x-1 vs. 22-y-1 where x and y don't need to be known. And since L results make up some 40% of results in NHL games, by using the points system to sort teams, you're ignoring some 40% of the results. Thus the NHL's point system is inferior to and reveals less information than the system used in NBA and MLB, as they use 100% of the results.


Just like with the GWG, you should petition Gary Bettman and tell him how wrong he, the IOC, the IIHF, the Euro hockey leagues, the MLS, the FIFA, the Euro Soccer leagues, the Euro Basket leagues, the FIS, the IBU and others are.
 
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