Why Aren't Gilbert Perreault's Numbers Better?

[authentic]

Good one, Sundin

Top 10: 4-7 (the 4th in a weak year arguably, Adam Oates was getting close to 65 and was just 2 pts behind), but when you look at a window of seasons he look really good.

Perreault had strong consistency

Funny I didn’t realize this about Sundin but he was actually a better even strength goal scorer than Joe Sakic in the dead puck era.

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

His stats don't seem that bad for someone voted 132nd on last top 200 list

 

[The Panther]

Is it maybe a thing that Perreault just wasn't quite an elite shooter / goal-scorer? He broke 40 goals three times, but only once comfortably over 40.

His shooting percentages seem okay, though. Maybe he just didn't shoot that much? Here's a comparison of most shots on goal in six individual seasons, from the #1 total and going down:

Perreault: 243 / 237 / 234 / 218 / 210 / 195
Esposito: 550 / 426 / 411 / 405 / 393 / 351
Sittler: 346 / 331 / 315 / 311 / 307 / 290
Dionne: 378 / 376 / 362 / 348 / 346 / 346

Perreault's shot numbers are comparible with someone like Bobby Clarke, who was not known as a goal scorer.

I mention this because if Perreault scored 5 or 10 more goals per season, his point totals likely look rather more impressive.

 

[frisco]

Perreault was notoriously unselfish both as a shooter (pass first mentality) and as a player who wasn't really driven to put up big numbers. Not saying that as an excuse, but as a widely held belief.

And I don't see a whole lot not to like about his production. 1327 points (35th all-time) and a higher point/game average (27th all-time) than MacKinnon, Bure, Messier, the Hulls, Ovechkin, Oates, Clarke, Sittler, Selanne, Kariya, Gilmour, St.Louis, Thornton, Jagr, Fedorov, Mikita, the Sedins and a host of others.

And like I mentioned, he increased his point/game in the playoffs and was a tremendous international player. Only Canadian (and Russian?) player to play in the 1972 Summit, 1976 and 1981 Canada Cups, 1979 Challenge Cup and in retrospect, may have been overlooked for the 1984 Canada Cup (Islander/Oiler split squad, 13th in points/game among Canadian forwards in 1983-84) where he would have been a nice veteran presence with his international c.v.

My Best-Carey

 

[Michael Farkas]

Would probably be a good idea to do a proper talent evaluation of the French Connection line. Maybe Perreault is doing everything and he's passing to 1970's Pascal Dupuis. So, that means only X% of the setups actually get converted into points for all....

 

[VMBM]

Only Canadian (and Russian?) player to play in the 1972 Summit, 1976 and 1981 Canada Cups, 1979 Challenge Cup

Tretiak, Vasiliev. (Marcel Dionne was on the roster in the 1972 series, but didn't play.)

 

[buffalowing88]

They were before my time but just from watching old footage of Sabres games over the years and hearing from family who were at those games, I think that @frisco probably captured it best in saying that he just didn't have the "alpha" in him that drives some guys to score as much as possible.

Perreault had so many natural gifts that he didn't ever really have to develop that extra edge to put his foot on the opponent's throat. You notice it in series like the 75 SCF where the Flyers stars just wanted it more.

He's got such an aesthetically-pleasing and unselfish game that he reminds me of Malkin in a way, just without the edge that Malkin sometimes displays.

Also, I think there's a weak link on that French Connection line that gets glossed over but Rene Robert always underwhelms me when I watch them. He was a good player but that line was Perreault and Martin and a very accomplished passenger.

 

[Staniowski]

I think what frisco said about Perreault's personality is a valid point, and somewhat of a factor. Perreault seemed like a very nice guy, mild-mannered.

But the answer is actually quite simple. Perreault was a great skater and stand-out puck carrier, and that's what everybody sees when they watch him play. However, he wasn't as good of a scorer - either goal-scorer or playmaker - and also, he was a bit of a perimeter player (at least in comparison to Dionne or Clarke or even Sittler).

Perreault was never as good a scorer as Lafleur and Dionne, even in junior.

But Perreault's excellent skating and puckhandling could give him an advantage over Dionne (and even Lafleur), and that's the main reason he outscored those guys on Team Canada.

He was, in a sense, better than his numbers, similar to other players like Messier, Sundin, Fedorov, Modano, probably Schmidt and Kennedy, and guys like Matthews, and even Howe and McDavid to an extent.

 

[Boxscore]

They were before my time but just from watching old footage of Sabres games over the years and hearing from family who were at those games, I think that @frisco probably captured it best in saying that he just didn't have the "alpha" in him that drives some guys to score as much as possible.

Perreault had so many natural gifts that he didn't ever really have to develop that extra edge to put his foot on the opponent's throat. You notice it in series like the 75 SCF where the Flyers stars just wanted it more.

He's got such an aesthetically-pleasing and unselfish game that he reminds me of Malkin in a way, just without the edge that Malkin sometimes displays.

Also, I think there's a weak link on that French Connection line that gets glossed over but Rene Robert always underwhelms me when I watch them. He was a good player but that line was Perreault and Martin and a very accomplished passenger.

Very nice take. I like the Malkin comparison but I think Perreault was way more silky smooth than Geno. Although some of Malkin's highlights are Perreault-esque.

 

[MadLuke]

and guys like Matthews, and even Howe and McDavid to an extent.

I wonder if for the Matthews-McDavid of the world, is are they better than their numbers or it is how our brain tend to look at numbers.

I think (maybe more in the national league section of the website) there a misunderstading of player number value (which could be in my brain or in a lot of people brain) that become clear when people talk about capspace value, I think McDavid is extremelly cheap and give Edmonton an edge over all other team that have player on their real contract signed, many seem to think he is a drag that make it hard to win the cup.

McDavid scored 357 since 2021-2022, Kadri 188, so they think 2xKadri > McDavid.

I see it more, a first line forward score 145 pts or so during that stretch.

Kadri outperform that by 40-50 pts, McDavid by 200-220, the value is not in the absolute number it is in the how much you outplay the competition. This is much clearer among goaltenders and would be if hockey had only 1 forward playing by team as well.

Matthews has 148 goals, a good scoring first liner that are not cheap has 60 (the Been-Seguin-Eichel-Rust-Schenn), the difference between the beat goal scorer like Tkachuck-Kaprizov and the great like Matthews-Pastrnak is quite big, the gap betweem them and the best is double.

The numbers are just never presented that way.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

I would love to spend some time watching Perreault, who retired just before I started watching NHL.

Seeing him in brief clips and such, he always looks very impressive, especially his skating.

That's the thing. For every highlight, there were a half-dozen instances of him displaying the same skill that disappear. I rather think McDavid is going to prove to be the same way. Maybe one day we'll have an analytics stat that covers this kind of off-camera effect. If we don't have it already.

We shouldn't forget that some of his legend derives not only from Buffalo but from...

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

I don't know the answer, as I never watched him play until the 80s, but have always noticed his lack of production vs. his legacy. Once third place in points, once 4th in points per game. I'd be interested in a list of names of players who placed as good as third one time in their career... maybe ill go look, now.

I think of GP as leaving something on the table after all was said and done. It did seem like he didn't quite live up to his potential, but maybe that's just a projection on my part. I kind of see GP like Ovie. Part of me wants GP to be more complete, and that would seem to involve being more of a shooter. With Ovie it was the other way, to me. In the long run though I figured, let Ovie be Ovie. I'm thinking that the same should carry over to GP now I think about it. But it is a bit of a bummer, because his stickhandling was so magnificent.

 

[decma]

I wonder if for the Matthews-McDavid of the world, is are they better than their numbers or it is how our brain tend to look at numbers.

I think (maybe more in the national league section of the website) there a misunderstading of player number value (which could be in my brain or in a lot of people brain) that become clear when people talk about capspace value, I think McDavid is extremelly cheap and give Edmonton an edge over all other team that have player on their real contract signed, many seem to think he is a drag that make it hard to win the cup.

McDavid scored 357 since 2021-2022, Kadri 188, so they think 2xKadri > McDavid.

I see it more, a first line forward score 145 pts or so during that stretch.

Kadri outperform that by 40-50 pts, McDavid by 200-220, the value is not in the absolute number it is in the how much you outplay the competition. This is much clearer among goaltenders and would be if hockey had only 1 forward playing by team as well.

Matthews has 148 goals, a good scoring first liner that are not cheap has 60 (the Been-Seguin-Eichel-Rust-Schenn), the difference between the beat goal scorer like Tkachuck-Kaprizov and the great like Matthews-Pastrnak is quite big, the gap betweem them and the best is double.

The numbers are just never presented that way.

Yes, the analysis of the value of a player needs to take into account their marginal value over other players given comparable opportunities (ES TOI, PP TOI, etc.)

 

[Staniowski]

I wonder if for the Matthews-McDavid of the world, is are they better than their numbers or it is how our brain tend to look at numbers.

I think (maybe more in the national league section of the website) there a misunderstading of player number value (which could be in my brain or in a lot of people brain) that become clear when people talk about capspace value, I think McDavid is extremelly cheap and give Edmonton an edge over all other team that have player on their real contract signed, many seem to think he is a drag that make it hard to win the cup.

McDavid scored 357 since 2021-2022, Kadri 188, so they think 2xKadri > McDavid.

I see it more, a first line forward score 145 pts or so during that stretch.

Kadri outperform that by 40-50 pts, McDavid by 200-220, the value is not in the absolute number it is in the how much you outplay the competition. This is much clearer among goaltenders and would be if hockey had only 1 forward playing by team as well.

Matthews has 148 goals, a good scoring first liner that are not cheap has 60 (the Been-Seguin-Eichel-Rust-Schenn), the difference between the beat goal scorer like Tkachuck-Kaprizov and the great like Matthews-Pastrnak is quite big, the gap betweem them and the best is double.

The numbers are just never presented that way.

The way that I was thinking about it, is that - using Matthews and McDavid as examples - in the case of Matthews, a significant part is that he's not a substantial playmaker, so that holds back his overall numbers (i.e.his points), but he can really be expected to always be a major impact player, even if his points are lagging.

For McDavid, I think his skating and puck-carrying is so incredibly strong, and is always there as a force, but his actual scoring is not quite as strong (as his skating and puck-carrying). Which is actually similar to Perreault. Both McDavid and Perreault are not as good at the mechanics of scoring as they are at skating and handling the puck. Neither of them, for example, are the greatest goal-scorers.

 

[The Panther]

Both McDavid and Perreault are not as good at the mechanics of scoring as they are at skating and handling the puck. Neither of them, for example, are the greatest goal-scorers.

I mean, McDavid just scored 64 goals in a season and won the Rocket... Perreault's highest finish in goals was 6th.

 

[Staniowski]

I mean, McDavid just scored 64 goals in a season and won the Rocket... Perreault's highest finish in goals was 6th.

I'm not comparing their goal-scoring abilities per se, just that goal-scoring is the weakest (least great) offensive talent for both players.

Specifically, If you were to divide their offensive talents into:

1) skating
2) puckhandling
3) goal-scoring
4) playmaking

Goal-scoring is easily the least-strong of the four for McDavid. And same for Perreault.