Why are we so easy to play against?

frizzer1

Registered User
Oct 19, 2013
5,316
3,826
I do feel, however, that Matthews is bringing it and for the first time in his career is using the body.
 

baton elevated

One Man Gang
Jun 4, 2009
1,321
789
Hard not to blame Dubas and Keefe.

the entitled brats were given everything they asked for. Their mean coach was fired, they were given the linemates they wanted, and they were given more ice time that they asked for. Then the new young coach came in and proclaimed "you guys are so skilled! We need you to play to your god given talent".... their heads went from watermelons to beachballs!

Little by little the defensive play, disipline and work ethic dissolved from their games and more and more the shinny moves continue to grow and evolve. Instead of buckling down, limiting mistakes, making simple plays and matching the oppositions work ethic or "gasp" exceeding it... they relied more and more on their "god given talent"... they do spin orama passes and shots...they try to deke through 4 players alone. Shocking that they suck...it really is.
I agree, they were given everything they wanted without much of a push back. When low character people are granted everything they want, they are never satisfied and must move on to the next stimulant. Insatiable is the term. Hope some of these guys aren't getting into the blow.
The whole problem started with the Nylander contract, he had no leverage but Dubas could not let him sit out the year. Thought it would stunt the team growth.......wrong.

Willie's camp would have given in and not risk $6 mill for the year. That was the precursor to the rest of them. There was not one hard negotiation amongst the three. An experienced GM wouldn't have caved. Boston never does and is quick to rid themselves of this characteristic. Kessel,Seguin, Hamilton etc. They care more about character than skill .
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
40,975
32,364
St. Paul, MN
There's not a single overriding issue but rather a few, that unfortunately tend to overlap.

As others have mentioned thr Leafs playing style + contemporary dysfunctional trends in league wide officiating means that the Leafs main weapon at the moment - a lethal PP - is neutralized before it even gets a chance to happen.

Mental issues - Andersen is performing like a B or C level backup
That's not ALL is fault, but these early game easy goals seemingly just gut the confidence of the skaters. Which leads to the second mental issue of that both thr core AND a few too many of the secondary tier guys have been taking too many nights off. Matthews has been better than most with his 3rd period goals, but the team needs guys to help carry them on their backs during tough games
 
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daveleaf

#FIREKEEFE #MIGHTBETIMETOFIRESHANNYTOO
Mar 23, 2010
5,857
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Somewhere Babs is sitting with his wife, somewhere warm with a cold one in his hand with a huge smirk on his face and in his mind saying, "I told you so".
 
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daveleaf

#FIREKEEFE #MIGHTBETIMETOFIRESHANNYTOO
Mar 23, 2010
5,857
538
Canada
It’s too easy to score on their defence.
Sandin, Barrie, and Dermott are too small or too weak to handle opposing forwards.
Holl playing top two is a recipe for disaster.
Marincin is .. never mind
And Andersen fails consistently in crunch time.
That is what deflates a team,in my view.

Jesus. How many big save did Anderson make last night? Canes should have had 12 goals.
 

I am Canadian

AM34|WN88|MM16
May 22, 2008
6,408
2,353
Toronto
Defense wins championships; we drafted in this order - Nylander --> Marner --> Matthews. I don't think management expected us to become a playoff team so quickly. I think they were expecting it to take longer and by that time we would have more draft picks to target defenseman. They're scrambling now to do that by drafting Liljegren and Sandin but D take more time to develop.

And now they went out and traded for a worse defensive version of Rielly in Barrie. Completely delusional in what they actually needed.
 

usernamezrhardtodo

Registered User
Mar 26, 2014
2,246
2,662
Marner is soft, Tavares is a robot, Nylander is strong on the puck but isn't exactly physical. I have noticed Matthews throwing his body around more often which is nice to see. The Leafs may be the only team that doesn't finish their hits on a player despite seeing the other team do it to them constantly.

I am convinced that they are told not to. I really am sure that they just preach puck on sticks..get in the way..blah blah...why? because these are pretty small players...ya I know Matty is big..but he doesn't play big...none of them really do play a physical game. JT gets slammed around in the corners..but he does try to get the puck back at least. AM is good at puck retrieval too...but then you have the rest that lose board battles because they are either on the smaller side or are larger but 'skilled' and are not used to it.

Perfect example of skill would be Patty Marleau...he scored tons of goals...and then compare him to Justin Williams (who we should have signed instead) and he doesn't have any where near the goals but has 3 cups and his called Mr.Game 7...that is having 'Will' compared to skill.
 

Antropovsky

Registered User
Jun 2, 2007
13,984
4,965
Somewhere Babs is sitting with his wife, somewhere warm with a cold one in his hand with a huge smirk on his face and in his mind saying, "I told you so".
His job prospectives are looking better and better with each game. He kept his mouth shut during drama surrounding his firing, even apologized for the marner thing....ill admit im beginning to think he was the final semblence of a leader remaining on his roster. Again... i agree probably a narcissist, but the one thing even people who hate him will even say... he works hard and always is prepared. His main fault is he is unlikeable.. but i do think hes a good coach otherwise.

I think Muzzin is a good leader too, but maybe too new to the situation to have the voice he deserves.

I think Keefes system is bad and it doesnt matter how hard the team works from this point on. Unless they switch to a more defensive system they are likely to always be the underdogs, especially with the injuries. They have looked mostly clueless against defensive teams ever since Keefe took over.
 

FraumBallard

Registered User
Dec 9, 2018
980
407
Because the players are not willing to make the hard plays when necessary. And its not about physicality, I don't buy that. It is about being on the right side of the puck even though that means you may not get that fast break chance, it is about that extra push to win a race to the puck, even though it means you may have to take a hit, it is about making decisions that coincide with the game in that moment, even though that means you may not get anymore goals in that game.

Bottom line, these guys know exactly what it takes to give themselves the best chance to win but they are not willing (en masse) to do it. Which is why this group is so dislike-able. Its clearly the wrong mix in the dressing room that likely will not be fixed before next season.
It is about physicality.
It's very obvious.
Muzzin/Clifford/Hyman are our only physical players.
Meanwhile.
Engvall/Kapanen/Johnsson/Kerfoot/Malgin/Timashov/Petan etc...
You watch the Leafs?
And you really believe physicality is not an issue.
You sound like Wonder Boy.
Which is why we're here.
 

SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
35,591
16,773
They want to be easy to play against right now. If things do not come easy for them, then they do not want to go to work.

That is on the players to identify and fix. I am sure two coaches have pointed it out to them now, and one of them is helping them as much as he can with the way he deploys them.

Ultimately it is up to the players to want to play, and right now they do not want to play. The only mistake was thinking/believing these guys could be professional enough to want to be like every other NHLer, but I guess they need some real adversity before that happens.
 

FraumBallard

Registered User
Dec 9, 2018
980
407
The problem is most teams take on the identity of their best players. It's rare for a team to have a tough identity and then have a bunch of floaters as their top players.

You can bring in all the Clifford's you want, but they will get here and fall into the floater mentality of this core group. What's worse is that fans think a guy like Clifford or Muzzin is playing hard because they throw one hit every four games. Yes, that does stand out with our group because literally nobody hits, but it's not enough to survive with the teams built with real men that will ultimately succeed in may and June.

At this point, we have to get rid of half of the core and start again.
You don't like Mizzin?
Strange.
You WATCH right?
Or
Are you a #s guy.
We need way more Muzzin/Clifford.
Way less Kappanem/Johnsson/Kerfoot/Barrie/ etc...
Ya know.
It's still a physical game.
Despite what the new fans think.
 

The CyNick

Freedom of Speech!
Sep 17, 2009
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You don't like Mizzin?
Strange.
You WATCH right?
Or
Are you a #s guy.
We need way more Muzzin/Clifford.
Way less Kappanem/Johnsson/Kerfoot/Barrie/ etc...
Ya know.
It's still a physical game.
Despite what the new fans think.

Muzzin is the only guy who will throw the occasional hit, which I like. But he doesn't play with the same intensity shift in and shift out he did in LA.

I guarantee I watch more hockey games than most people here combined.

In LA he was surrounded by people who took the game seriously, so he knew it was expected he play like that every shift. In Toronto he's a completely different player from a compete level standpoint. But to fans who only watch the Leafs, they think he's this unicorn because they are used to garbage effort night in and night out. If he gives a strong effort every third game, the average Leafs fan thinks he's consistent.

From a skill perspective, he's never been great. He gained notoriety from the masses because he played with a prime Doughty and looked great. Once Doughty started to fall off, he no longer seemed as great. Expect to Dubas, who thought he was worth a first and two seconds. I don't think anyone else in the league had him at that value.

Seeing him literally up close and personal, I don't see an elite dman. Compared to our other dmen, sure he looks good, but I see a ton of flaws. Look no further than the game against Buffalo where a poor read and lack of foot speed caused him to take a dumb penalty which cost us the game. He was very good against Pittsburgh on Thursday, which is the type of effort you'd want game in and game out. Unfortunately he doesn't give you that every night. I personally wouldn't commit term to him, but that's me.

Clifford has been very meh to me.
 
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FraumBallard

Registered User
Dec 9, 2018
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407
Muzzin is the only guy who will throw the occasional hit, which I like. But he doesn't play with the same intensity shift in and shift out he did in LA.

I guarantee I watch more hockey games than most people here combined.

In LA he was surrounded by people who took the game seriously, so he knew it was expected he play like that every shift. In Toronto he's a completely different player from a compete level standpoint. But to fans who only watch the Leafs, they think he's this unicorn because they are used to garbage effort night in and night out. If he gives a strong effort every third game, the average Leafs fan thinks he's consistent.

From a skill perspective, he's never been great. He gained notoriety from the masses because he played with a prime Doughty and looked great. Once Doughty started to fall off, he no longer seemed as great. Expect to Dubas, who thought he was worth a first and two seconds. I don't think anyone else in the league had him at that value.

Seeing him literally up close and personal, I don't see an elite dman. Compared to our other dmen, sure he looks good, but I see a ton of flaws. Look no further than the game against Buffalo where a poor read and lack of foot speed caused him to take a dumb penalty which cost us the game. He was very good against Pittsburgh on Thursday, which is the type of effort you'd want game in and game out. Unfortunately he doesn't give you that every night. I personally wouldn't commit term to him, but that's me.

Clifford has been very meh to me.
Fair.
We can disagree.
He's your #3 on a Cup winner I think.
By far our best defenceman though.
We literally have zero physical defenceman except Muzzin.
Which is why 5.5x4 is more than fair.
He would get way more as UFA.
I'm not sure I would want to stay if I were him.
Unless they get a Real GM.
Clifford.
A man on an Island for now.
He needs some men to help up front.
Josh Anderson type.
Someone who isn't scared.
 
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The CyNick

Freedom of Speech!
Sep 17, 2009
11,364
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Fair.
We can disagree.
He's your #3 on a Cup winner I think.
By far our best defenceman though.
We literally have zero physical defenceman except Muzzin.
Which is why 5.5x4 is more than fair.
He would get way more as UFA.
I'm not sure I would want to stay if I were him.
Unless they get a Real GM.
Clifford.
A man on an Island for now.
He needs some men to help up front.
Josh Anderson type.
Someone who isn't scared.

We could fill the bottom six with as many hard nosed players as you want. The boy band make up the leadership group in this team. As long as that's the case, we'll have the same problems.
 
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usernamezrhardtodo

Registered User
Mar 26, 2014
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Muzzin is the only guy who will throw the occasional hit, which I like. But he doesn't play with the same intensity shift in and shift out he did in LA.

I guarantee I watch more hockey games than most people here combined.

In LA he was surrounded by people who took the game seriously, so he knew it was expected he play like that every shift. In Toronto he's a completely different player from a compete level standpoint. But to fans who only watch the Leafs, they think he's this unicorn because they are used to garbage effort night in and night out. If he gives a strong effort every third game, the average Leafs fan thinks he's consistent.

From a skill perspective, he's never been great. He gained notoriety from the masses because he played with a prime Doughty and looked great. Once Doughty started to fall off, he no longer seemed as great. Expect to Dubas, who thought he was worth a first and two seconds. I don't think anyone else in the league had him at that value.

Seeing him literally up close and personal, I don't see an elite dman. Compared to our other dmen, sure he looks good, but I see a ton of flaws. Look no further than the game against Buffalo where a poor read and lack of foot speed caused him to take a dumb penalty which cost us the game. He was very good against Pittsburgh on Thursday, which is the type of effort you'd want game in and game out. Unfortunately he doesn't give you that every night. I personally wouldn't commit term to him, but that's me.

Clifford has been very meh to me.

I keep saying this but...I think they are frowned upon when they hit guys...the rest of the team is 'Skilled' and below average in size...they think they can play without waking up the other team by hitting. Babs would say that Lidstrom never hit people..he would get puck on stick and box them out ..blah blah....That's a mantra that I think reverberated through the whole system (Marlies too) and they are stuck with that mentality. How many guys come here that WERE big hitters and they suddenly stop? Muzzin, Clifford etc...

They really do think they can skill their way to a Cup and they will literally go down in flames trying to prove it. Shanny for all his rough and tumble playing career is a guy when he was DOPS sent out and email saying they should get rid of fighting completely ...COMPLETELY!
You think that guy is valuing a Tom Wilson type player or Josh Anderson?

I know Lou Lam made a lot of mistakes...but he did make a lot of sense when he said a team was like an orchestra...you need everyone of different skill sets to play their part to make great music. We my friends have a bunch of violinist's and nothing else.
 
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FraumBallard

Registered User
Dec 9, 2018
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407
We could fill the bottom six with as many hard nosed players as you want. The boy band make up the leadership group in this team. As long as that's the case, we'll have the same problems.
Dubas does not have the stones to trade Maraner.
But.
That's the guy you trade for a franchise altering move.
Matthew's #1 Center.
Taveras not great value.
Nylander not getting the return you need.
Maraner is the guy.
Never happen.
 

Blowfish

Count down ...
Jan 13, 2005
22,760
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Southwestern Ontario
This is my thought as well. Dubas was naive to buy into the league’s words that they will officiate the game properly. He built a team that should be well at the top of the league in power plays. It’s not a bad strategy.

but the league doesn’t hold up their end of the bargain. I think it’s totally a legit way to look at this team.

And they don’t want to win hockey games

:help:
 

FraumBallard

Registered User
Dec 9, 2018
980
407
I do feel, however, that Matthews is bringing it and for the first time in his career is using the body.
I love Matthew's.
He does not hit.
Period.
That's okay.
You can't have 15 others that don't hit either.
Not hard to figure out really.
 

Hugh Jass

Registered User
Dec 23, 2019
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Can anyone tell me why a thread i started 5 minutes ago with 3 replies is no longer on here?
 

wingman75

Registered User
Dec 3, 2008
5,586
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The QC
It is about physicality.
It's very obvious.
Muzzin/Clifford/Hyman are our only physical players.
Meanwhile.
Engvall/Kapanen/Johnsson/Kerfoot/Malgin/Timashov/Petan etc...
You watch the Leafs?
And you really believe physicality is not an issue.
You sound like Wonder Boy.
Which is why we're here.

I watch every game. Physicality without a purpose is pointless. Just being physical would do nothing for this team. Playing harder and smarter puts them in a position to win. There would be some additional physicality that naturally comes with that, but hitting for the sake of it is not going to get it done. Thursday vs Pit was the winning recipe and I didn't feel that was much more physical than normal.
 

c9777666

Registered User
Aug 31, 2016
19,892
5,875
Because it's a bunch of prissy trust-fund millenials playing shinny.

They all want to score highlight reel goals instead of hard-work goals. How many people do you see in front of the net? They want to pass it around with fancy passes instead of collapsing and driving the net.

Sounds like Edmonton's two stars. They don't play a lot of defense yet everyone gives them a free pass because they won a playoff series.
 

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