Why are there currently no Belarusian, Kazakh, or Ukrainian NHL players, and only one Latvian?

Ingvar

Registered User
Jan 16, 2016
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130
Moscow
Lets see. Shared history especially shared ancient history? Check. Shared mentality and introvertness? Check. Shared architecture? Check. How about the fact we are part of Nordic-Baltic 8? Not to mention Northern Europe is a geogrpahic designation as far as im ****ing aware, why the hell would you ever bring up culture, economy OR ethnicity is beyond me. Please dont speak on matters you have no buisness discussing.

Ok, let’s go step-by-step =)
  1. Shared history - it’s the first time I see anyone taking pride in being a colony 300 years ago but whatever floats your boat. If you could point out any lasting influence from that period that would be nice - for example, Lutheran Christianity came from German nobles beforehand.
  2. Shared ancient history - that’s easily traced by language roots. Latvian is a member of Eastern Baltic group together with Lithuanian, on the next level it is Baltic languages (which is irrelevant because all non-Eastern Baltic have died out) and on the next level there is Balto-Slavic language branch. Unfortunately, Nordic languages aren’t Slavic , they’re German, making your claim highly suspicious.
  3. Shared mentality - that just sounds like a bunch of bs, can you point out something tangible?
  4. Nordic-Baltic 8 - finally we’re onto something. It is a regular group which probably as relevant as Visegrad group - which is somewhat relevant as a bunch of neighbours with shared border. It would make a nice story about Baltic sea society - but Iceland being included really breaks this narrative and points to cooperation between Nordic Council and Baltic Assembly.
What I wanted to say is that you have to be really creative with scissors to cut out Nothern Europe which includes Baltic states, because all your actual neighbours come from Eastern or Central Europe. Geographic unions are relevant when they are backed by reality - which is why I mentioned culture, economy and ethnicity. In the end, if you think about stereotypes of Nothern and Eastern Europe - the former doesn’t describe Baltic states at all while the latter fit to a T. I guess that hurts but we are what we are.
 

BalticWarrior

Registered User
Apr 28, 2012
6,477
320
Riga
Ok, let’s go step-by-step =)
  1. Shared history - it’s the first time I see anyone taking pride in being a colony 300 years ago but whatever floats your boat. If you could point out any lasting influence from that period that would be nice - for example, Lutheran Christianity came from German nobles beforehand.
  2. Shared ancient history - that’s easily traced by language roots. Latvian is a member of Eastern Baltic group together with Lithuanian, on the next level it is Baltic languages (which is irrelevant because all non-Eastern Baltic have died out) and on the next level there is Balto-Slavic language branch. Unfortunately, Nordic languages aren’t Slavic , they’re German, making your claim highly suspicious.
  3. Shared mentality - that just sounds like a bunch of bs, can you point out something tangible?
  4. Nordic-Baltic 8 - finally we’re onto something. It is a regular group which probably as relevant as Visegrad group - which is somewhat relevant as a bunch of neighbours with shared border. It would make a nice story about Baltic sea society - but Iceland being included really breaks this narrative and points to cooperation between Nordic Council and Baltic Assembly.
What I wanted to say is that you have to be really creative with scissors to cut out Nothern Europe which includes Baltic states, because all your actual neighbours come from Eastern or Central Europe. Geographic unions are relevant when they are backed by reality - which is why I mentioned culture, economy and ethnicity. In the end, if you think about stereotypes of Nothern and Eastern Europe - the former doesn’t describe Baltic states at all while the latter fit to a T. I guess that hurts but we are what we are.

I will combine points 1&2 - i could mention things like pagan holidays- Summer solstice, the fact that ancient Curonians and Semigallians lived and traded(not to mention fought eachother) together with Vikings and influenced each other quite bit. Also the whole Balto-Slavic nonsense is not supported by any Latvian language expert, this "grouping" was made up in the Soviet union to justify(one of many justifications) the fact we were occupied by USSR. Baltic languages are not Slavic in any way shape or form. Dont believe come to Rīga and see how much you can understand of Latvian.
3. I already mentioned the cultural similarities- introvertness and close family structure as opposed to Slavic and southern cultures.
4. I really dont understand how Iceland being included breaks anything???? Its a nordic country ofcourse its going to be included in the Nordic-Baltic 8.
 

Atas2000

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
13,601
3,269
I will combine points 1&2 - i could mention things like pagan holidays- Summer solstice, the fact that ancient Curonians and Semigallians lived and traded(not to mention fought eachother) together with Vikings and influenced each other quite bit. Also the whole Balto-Slavic nonsense is not supported by any Latvian language expert, this "grouping" was made up in the Soviet union to justify(one of many justifications) the fact we were occupied by USSR. Baltic languages are not Slavic in any way shape or form. Dont believe come to Rīga and see how much you can understand of Latvian.
3. I already mentioned the cultural similarities- introvertness and close family structure as opposed to Slavic and southern cultures.
4. I really dont understand how Iceland being included breaks anything???? Its a nordic country ofcourse its going to be included in the Nordic-Baltic 8.
You are telling me about "balto-slavic nonsense" in lnguages? Don't touch languages ever again before you educate yourself. Your anti-sovet hatred is so hilarious it robs you of the last bits of objectvity. NONE of it was produced in the Soviet Union and the relation of languages is obvious even to non-liguists, let alone people who own the qualification. Other than that you can argue with Rask and Schleicher and see how the linguits community sees your arguments. Come out and see the world. There are many things you are obviously not familiar with.

And be careful about those "occupation" myths. That boomerang is coming for you. People who try to bend history become it's victims evidently.

When I come to Riga, I understand a lot. Because I unlike you know a thing or two about languages and specifically about the indo-european language family which unites a little bit more than just baltic and slavic languages. If you would learn more about lanuages you would understand how languages grow and interact and also hear and see the evident relations.

3.You are quickly approaching nazi territory by claiming some chauvinistic and racial ideology BS about nations cultures and even psychology. That is exactly what those fellows were claiming back then. I don't expect you to have read Jung's works on intro/extraversion. Please do before you write such stuff.

4.Your eagerness to belong to a larger group is well described with the psychology gurus. Maybe you should give a thought to the following: you belong to a much larger group already and your attempts to build up useless boundaries speaks of complexes more than anything.

How is this even in this thread? That speaks volumes too.
 

BalticWarrior

Registered User
Apr 28, 2012
6,477
320
Riga
You are telling me about "balto-slavic nonsense" in lnguages? Don't touch languages ever again before you educate yourself. Your anti-sovet hatred is so hilarious it robs you of the last bits of objectvity. NONE of it was produced in the Soviet Union and the relation of languages is obvious even to non-liguists, let alone people who own the qualification. Other than that you can argue with Rask and Schleicher and see how the linguits community sees your arguments. Come out and see the world. There are many things you are obviously not familiar with.

And be careful about those "occupation" myths. That boomerang is coming for you. People who try to bend history become it's victims evidently.

When I come to Riga, I understand a lot. Because I unlike you know a thing or two about languages and specifically about the indo-european language family which unites a little bit more than just baltic and slavic languages. If you would learn more about lanuages you would understand how languages grow and interact and also hear and see the evident relations.

3.You are quickly approaching nazi territory by claiming some chauvinistic and racial ideology BS about nations cultures and even psychology. That is exactly what those fellows were claiming back then. I don't expect you to have read Jung's works on intro/extraversion. Please do before you write such stuff.

4.Your eagerness to belong to a larger group is well described with the psychology gurus. Maybe you should give a thought to the following: you belong to a much larger group already and your attempts to build up useless boundaries speaks of complexes more than anything.

How is this even in this thread? That speaks volumes too.

To be honest i dont know either- i just pointed out the simple fact that we should not be lumped in with Eastern Europeans which lead me to this ridicilous conversation. If the original dude that responded to me has a problem with geographic entities, he cant take it up with the U.N.
 

Atas2000

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
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This topic interests me, and I'd like to understand your point of view on it.

You've said the US and Canada are mostly countries of immigrants, which is obviously true, but wouldnt this also be true for other countries?

The US and Canada are both "New" nations, though they've had numerous indigenous tribes for tens of thousands of years, themselves migrating from another continent over a long ago melted ice bridge. My point being that even though timespans vary, inevitably everyone came from somewhere else going back to our species first leaving Africa.
1.The african origin is hypothetic only, but that's not really relevant here.

2.We have to talk about very different time spans here than those of the genesis of humanity and such, Obviously none of the todays cultures existed back then. But if we're talking about time spabs relevant for eurasian ethnic groups, cultures, peoples and nations, we are talking about thousands of years still. The gap to the new american nations is obvious. The whole history of the US is no even 300 years. To put it into perspective St.Petersburg in Russia is considered a rather young city. It's only 315 years old. That is not to say that one is better or preferable in whatever way than the other. It is only to depict how deep some cultural roots go. And those roots do matter. And they do work in people's heads more than people realize. The cultures in the US ad Canada are still more or less european influenced in their core for example.

On an even smaller scale of maybe that span of the American history then there is that culture then int NA that everybody becomes an American or Canadian by the place of birth and/or citizenship. Couldn't work otherwise.

3.The other fact is the continuing immigration in those countries. That creates that special caseand a special tradition.

4.It is different in other parts of the world. For example on the huge territory that was the Russian Empire there was never atradition of the "melting pot". Nobody ever tried to assimilate smaller groups.It is also supported by the fact that those ethnic groups mostly continue to live where they used to live for thousands of years in some cases. they haven't left their lands to live in a different country/culture. They keep their language and culture, they live on as anethnic community to some extent.

That does create a different tradition, where you cultural roots are what matters, not your place of birth. In that tradition declaring yourself a Finn while your parents are Russians is strange.

5.Some modern european countries(partially influenced by the US btw. That's how complictaed those influences are. First Europeans basically created the new Americans and now american culture influences Europeans) do that shift nowadays and tend do value passport over ethnicity or cultural heritage. They often too have a hard time to understand my stance that legal affiliation and cultural heritage can be completely different issues. As I spent a lot of time abroad I was asked on numerous occasions if I would "feel" like I am russian still. They never understood how ridiculous that question is to me. I am want I am. I can't become anything but russian. Not if a housand pieces of paper say otherwise. It's not a matter of where I live or what language I speak or who my friends are. At the same time my heritage is as diverse as that of nearly anyone in my country, not unlike o that of modern day Americans. That btw makes Americans and Russians way more similar than most people realize.

Yes, in thusands of years our ancestors all did their share of travel :), but in out understanding it's the culture that defines you more and that you take with you to Mars if you go there.
 
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cleveland408

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Apr 12, 2014
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Right now Belarus has 13 players in the CHL, they have more WHL players than any other European country (10).
They also changed the developing system. Now the best U20 kids at home are playing against men in Extraleague-1, their U18 team is playing in Extraleague-2 also against men and U17 team is playing in Extraleague-3 against older guys.

That sounds like a lot like the USNTDP program.
 

Ingvar

Registered User
Jan 16, 2016
675
130
Moscow
I will combine points 1&2 - i could mention things like pagan holidays- Summer solstice, the fact that ancient Curonians and Semigallians lived and traded(not to mention fought eachother) together with Vikings and influenced each other quite bit. Also the whole Balto-Slavic nonsense is not supported by any Latvian language expert, this "grouping" was made up in the Soviet union to justify(one of many justifications) the fact we were occupied by USSR. Baltic languages are not Slavic in any way shape or form. Dont believe come to Rīga and see how much you can understand of Latvian.
3. I already mentioned the cultural similarities- introvertness and close family structure as opposed to Slavic and southern cultures.
4. I really dont understand how Iceland being included breaks anything???? Its a nordic country ofcourse its going to be included in the Nordic-Baltic 8.

I see, you don't believe in science, I shouldn't have bothered arguing. The common ancestor between Baltic and Slavic languages is more or less an accepted fact at this point. A more interesting question is whether there was a Baltic-Slavic split or Slavic, Eastern Baltic and Western Baltic branches split around the same time.

Just in case you're actually interested, I recommend starting from Wikipedia article on Proto-Balto-Slavic language (and maybe it's Talk page), it's really well written and does a nice summary of scientific research on the topic:
Proto-Balto-Slavic language - Wikipedia
Then you can move on to some papers by established linguists like this - 2008, Kortlandt (just in case you doubt his credentials, he is a member of the Royal Dutch Academy of Sciences):
https://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art066e.pdf
Afterwards, you can head towards other recent studies.
 

slovakiasnextone

Registered User
Jul 7, 2008
5,741
254
Slovakia
From what I know hockey in Romania is mostly played by ethnic Hungarians. If they are any good, chances are that they will end up playing for Hungary.

As for Belarus they have invested a lot of money into building hockey infrastructure over the past few years, but I'm not sure if they are doign anything beyond that. Sure, hockey infrastructure is important, but it won't develop NHL players on its own.
 
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YippieKaey

How you gonna do hockey like that?
Apr 2, 2012
2,896
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Stockholm Sweden
:help: Again that lack of knowledge aabout hostory, but some cliche takes out of the Cold War vocabulary.

Did you know that Czechoslovakia played hockey(and was really goid at it) way before Soviet Union? In fact the SU "learned" a lot about hockey from Czechoslovakia. Soviet influence in those countries has absolutely nothing in common with the popularity of hockey.

Technically, Czechoslovakia isn't Eastern Europe. It's a part of Central Europe, formerly known as Bohemia, home of the Rhapsody:)
 

Garl

Registered User
Oct 7, 2006
8,019
1,013
This topic interests me, and I'd like to understand your point of view on it.

You've said the US and Canada are mostly countries of immigrants, which is obviously true, but wouldnt this also be true for other countries?

The US and Canada are both "New" nations, though they've had numerous indigenous tribes for tens of thousands of years, themselves migrating from another continent over a long ago melted ice bridge. My point being that even though timespans vary, inevitably everyone came from somewhere else going back to our species first leaving Africa.
You are confusing a landmass and a country. USA and Canada are proposition nations, not founded by some tribe. European nations are.not like that.
 

Garl

Registered User
Oct 7, 2006
8,019
1,013
Btw, Atas 2000 dude, be a little.bit friendlier and more simple with your agenda and maybe people will like you LOL.
 

Garl

Registered User
Oct 7, 2006
8,019
1,013
I see, you don't believe in science, I shouldn't have bothered arguing. The common ancestor between Baltic and Slavic languages is more or less an accepted fact at this point. A more interesting question is whether there was a Baltic-Slavic split or Slavic, Eastern Baltic and Western Baltic branches split around the same time.

Just in case you're actually interested, I recommend starting from Wikipedia article on Proto-Balto-Slavic language (and maybe it's Talk page), it's really well written and does a nice summary of scientific research on the topic:
Proto-Balto-Slavic language - Wikipedia
Then you can move on to some papers by established linguists like this - 2008, Kortlandt (just in case you doubt his credentials, he is a member of the Royal Dutch Academy of Sciences):
https://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art066e.pdf
Afterwards, you can head towards other recent studies.

It's a common trend among the eastern euros to claim that they are some last frontier between european civilization and asian barbarism. It's a shame, generally baltic people are nice.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,845
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How about Norway?
For a sporting country that wins a lot of gold medal in the Olympics , doesn’t produce as many hockey players like Sweden and Finland does?

Because people in Norway doesn't care about hockey like people in Sweden and Finland.

Mystery solved.
 

Anaheim4ever

Registered User
Jun 15, 2017
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A small populated country can produce consistent legit talent but thats if the sport is very popular there & they have good youth programs for it.
Estonia & Lithuania aren't interested in hockey and them having very small population the chances are 1 in a trillion of them having an NHLer.
 

Anaheim4ever

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Jun 15, 2017
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What about Norway despite being next to Sweden & north of Denmark ? Their one player in the NHL is italian Mats Zuccarello.
I'd imagine the proximity would make it easier for Norway but they rarely produce NHL talent.
 

Webster

Zucc's buddy
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What about Norway despite being next to Sweden & north of Denmark ? Their one player in the NHL is italian Mats Zuccarello.
I'd imagine the proximity would make it easier for Norway but they rarely produce NHL talent.

This is all wrong.

Zuccarello is a Norwegian, and born there. Mom's dad is Italian.
There are currently two Norwegians in the NHL, also Andreas Martinsen on the Blackhawks.
A couple of drafted youngsters are on their way up.
 

WolfgangPuck

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May 12, 2012
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I been told that Norway’s climate is more like the UK and don’t have a lot of rinks. Cross county skiing is the most popular sport
East side of Oslo and closer to the Swedish border has hockey players but it’s regarded as 2nd class sport.
Any one who knows Norway care to confirm ?
 

Jon Riley

Registered User
May 2, 2015
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Oslo
Climate would be ok, just not much interest in the sport, therefore not many ice rinks.
Even Oslo has just a few old, uncomfortable and shabby rinks. Finally they teared down the Jordal Amfi to build a new one, but of course the drawings have been changed several times, got smaller and smaller, works are heavily delayed and noone likes the project. Specially because for some weird reason they decided to go with an NHL sized rink (to save space I assume), so the national team won't even be allowed to play in it.
 

Revelation

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Aug 15, 2016
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They were all product of the soviet school of hockey which was Russia centric and organized, after the collapse their hockey federations were non existent except Latvia but good Latvian players are still ultimately developed in Russia
 

Atas2000

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
13,601
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They were all product of the soviet school of hockey which was Russia centric and organized, after the collapse their hockey federations were non existent except Latvia but good Latvian players are still ultimately developed in Russia
Which latvian players would that be?
 

Atas2000

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
13,601
3,269
I been told that Norway’s climate is more like the UK and don’t have a lot of rinks. Cross county skiing is the most popular sport
East side of Oslo and closer to the Swedish border has hockey players but it’s regarded as 2nd class sport.
Any one who knows Norway care to confirm ?
In a country with a population of less than half of that of Moscow being something like the don't even know 10th sport in popularity behind the huge no.1 cross country skiing and then alpine skiing, biathlon, speed skating and others hockey is doomed to be marginal.
 

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