Who's the greatest player you've ever seen?

[KOVALEV10*]

^^^And when did I ever state that Kovalev is the next coming of christ. Are you a little drunk or something?


I think you must be drunk by saying Gretzky is the 3rd best. Im sure 99 percent of the people in here can contest to that. If Wayne never showed Mario how to play at a level higher then anyone else in Canada Cup 87. We would be comparing Mario to Sakics and Yzermans. not Gretzky. Oh well ur entitled to your opinion. Even though Wayne has played nearly 500 more games in his career than Mario. He STILL owns the best PPG average between the two.

END OF DEBATE: theres nothing you can say to bring a better fact to the table. Period!

Um.. please dont get me started on the Lemieux/Gretzky debate. Lemieux has been hit by injuries all his career, hell even cancer. Gretzky never had to go through that my friend. And despite all that Lemieux has scored around 700 goals in only 900 games while Gretzky has scored 900 in 1400 games! Wow I wonder why that is? Gretzky is the best passer ever, the smartest player ever but Lemieux was better when it comes to scoring goals, stickhandling and tougness. I know that you will say ******** but I got proof. First in the scoring goals category look at both mens GPG and you'll see that Lemieux's is way higher. About the stickhandling, have you ever seen Gretzky go through two guys at once like Lemieux always did especially against Minessota? Have you ever seen Gretzky toy with Ray Bourque by putting the puck into his skates and going in and scoring a goal? I could name a lot more situtations but you get my point. And Bobby Orr is well...Bobby Orr. The guy could score, make plays, block shots, hit and god forbid fight. He was the total package and the way he controled the game is totally unbelivable. So saying Gretzky is the third best of all time isnt stupid you know. Also Lemieux learned from Gretzky? So what? Gretzky learned from Lafleur in the Canada Cup 1981... so by your anology Lafleur was better then Gretzky?

 

[roast]

Even though Wayne has played nearly 500 more games in his career than Mario. He STILL owns the best PPG average between the two.

END OF DEBATE: theres nothing you can say to bring a better fact to the table. Period!

The only reason Gretzky owns that record now is because Lemieux lost it a season or 2 ago because he's got rather useless linemates at this point, as was battling another injjury. Plus, the differnces is like 1.92 to 1.91..its extremely close. But regarding the best players i've got to see:

Lemieux ("greatest" i've seen live)
Gretzky
Jagr
Kurri
Messier
Lindros
Coffey
Larry Murphy
Bure
LaFontaine

Getting to see Lemieux against Gretzky when Wayne was with the blues was pretty cool.

 

[doc5hole]

Last several years I've questioned myself on how much I bent toward Orr on loyalty, but I've also taken to watching more old reels lately and the conclusion is that, while the challenge of being the best player is always changing and how to quantify it is changing, Orr is clearly the best player I've ever seen.
It's easy to pick on the context when you see Orr carry the puck around five Atlanta Flames and slide it in from his backside, but the real stuff is watching him play the big games against the Blackhawks in '70 and the Rangers in '72. After those playoffs, his left knee was so shot he stopped skating backwards. Brad Park pointed to it as a reason NYR finally beat Boston in the '73 playoffs.

Others may have been better at some aspects of the game. No player used his teammates as well as 99 (and great teammates they were), no one was tougher than 9, and I personally don't think anyone dominated all three zones in their prime more than Ray Bourque, except Orr.
But quantifying this stuff is impossible.

I'd rather just say Orr is the best I've ever seen. I wish I saw Howe in his prime, but listening to Cherry, early-Neely gives you an idea of what people are talking about. But I've enjoyed many talents, the obvious ones like 99 and 66, but one that doesn't get talked about a whole lot because his team was a flash in the pan is Gilbert Perreault. Before he got too banged up, I thought he was, after Orr, the game's next most skilled and spectacular player of the 70's, more so than Lafleur.

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Um.. please dont get me started on the Lemieux/Gretzky debate. Lemieux has been hit by injuries all his career, hell even cancer. Gretzky never had to go through that my friend.

Ummm, 91 Canada Cup. Gretzky's career was basically ruined at that point. From then on he had dehabilitating back injury that probably had more of an effect on his play than Mario's cancer did after he came back.

And despite all that Lemieux has scored around 700 goals in only 900 games while Gretzky has scored 900 in 1400 games! Wow I wonder why that is?

Because Wayne played far more games than Mario has past his prime.

Gretzky is the best passer ever, the smartest player ever but Lemieux was better when it comes to scoring goals, stickhandling and tougness.

Wayne could stick handle just as well as anybody. Sure Lemieuxhad more toughness but that's why Wayne had speed.

I know that you will say ******** but I got proof. First in the scoring goals category look at both mens GPG and you'll see that Lemieux's is way higher.

Obviously it's higher, Wayne played more games. He also played more gams past his prime. It's much easier to maintain a good GPG or PPG while playing less games.

About the stickhandling, have you ever seen Gretzky go through two guys at once like Lemieux always did especially against Minessota?

Yes...

Have you ever seen Gretzky toy with Ray Bourque by putting the puck into his skates and going in and scoring a goal?

Generally when Wayne was streaking down the ice, players didn't skate away from him towards their own net. THey usually turned around to play him...

I could name a lot more situtations but you get my point.

Also Lemieux learned from Gretzky? So what? Gretzky learned from Lafleur in the Canada Cup 1981... so by your anology Lafleur was better then Gretzky?

No... Gretzky did not play well that tournament because of Guy he played well because he was the best player on Earth...

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Ummm, 91 Canada Cup. Gretzky's career was basically ruined at that point. From then on he had dehabilitating back injury that probably had more of an effect on his play than Mario's cancer did after he came back.



Because Wayne played far more games than Mario has past his prime.

Wayne could stick handle just as well as anybody. Sure Lemieux had more toughness but that's why Wayne had speed.



Obviously it's higher, Wayne played more games. He also played more gams past his prime. It's much easier to maintain a good GPG or PPG while playing less games.

Yes...



Generally when Wayne was streaking down the ice, players didn't skate away from him towards their own net. THey usually turned around to play him...





No... Gretzky did not play well that tournament because of Guy he played well because he was the best player on Earth...

Um..yeah 91 canada cup oh I forgot Gretzky was already 30 years old at that point! Lemieux was hit by injuries when he was around 22 for gods sake! Oh and Mario is 39 and still playing at a very high level. Wayne retired at 38!

Name me a time when Gretzky stickhandled in between two guys at once?

Oh and for the Lafleur thing.. I never said Lafleur was better then Gretzky my friend... when someone else in this thread said Lemieux learned from Gretzky... Anyways proof that Gretzky learned from Lafleur...

Here's the exact quote of Wayne Gretzky in the beggining of the Guy Lafleur DVD talking about "The Flower".

Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Hi I'm Wayne Gretzky. I just wanted to get an upportunity to say a few words about one of the greatest hockey players and obviously maybe the most exciting hockey player to ever play the game, the montreal canadiens Guy Lafleur. First of all I want to say that it was my great pleasure at the age of 19 to follow Guy Lafleur around not only in the locker rooms but on the ice in practice and of course in the games in canada cup 1981. And i'll tell you that I learned so much from him, what it takes to be a champion, what it takes to be a hard worker, the dedication that he put into the game and what he meant to the game. As a young boy growing up and I hate the age of Guy Lafleur but as a young boy growing up I used to watch him intensely every saturday night on hockey night in canada. Not only was he exciting and fun to watch but he was a true champion and that's the most important thing about being a proffesionnal hockey player in the NHL. So my hat goes off to Guy Lafleur and his family. Hope you have a wonderful evening tonight, take care!

Now what do you think? BTW I'm definately not trying to put Gretzky down, I think he was a better person then he was a player and he's always been such a class act. I just think that overall Lemieux was better that's all.

 

[Hawker14]

Um..yeah 91 canada cup oh I forgot Gretzky was already 30 years old at that point! Lemieux was hit by injuries when he was around 22 for gods sake! Oh and Mario is 39 and still playing at a very high level. Wayne retired at 38!

Name me a time when Gretzky stickhandled in between two guys at once?

Oh and for the Lafleur thing.. I never said Lafleur was better then Gretzky my friend... when someone else in this thread said Lemieux learned from Gretzky... Anyways proof that Gretzky learned from Lafleur...

Here's the exact quote of Wayne Gretzky in the beggining of the Guy Lafleur DVD talking about "The Flower".

Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Hi I'm Wayne Gretzky. I just wanted to get an upportunity to say a few words about one of the greatest hockey players and obviously maybe the most exciting hockey player to ever play the game, the montreal canadiens Guy Lafleur. First of all I want to say that it was my great pleasure at the age of 19 to follow Guy Lafleur around not only in the locker rooms but on the ice in practice and of course in the games in canada cup 1981. And i'll tell you that I learned so much from him, what it takes to be a champion, what it takes to be a hard worker, the dedication that he put into the game and what he meant to the game. As a young boy growing up and I hate the age of Guy Lafleur but as a young boy growing up I used to watch him intensely every saturday night on hockey night in canada. Not only was he exciting and fun to watch but he was a true champion and that's the most important thing about being a proffesionnal hockey player in the NHL. So my hat goes off to Guy Lafleur and his family. Hope you have a wonderful evening tonight, take care!

Now what do you think? BTW I'm definately not trying to put Gretzky down, I think he was a better person then he was a player and he's always been such a class act. I just think that overall Lemieux was better that's all.

laughing on the floor kicking myself in the ass as it's become an uncontrollable tremor. how many games has lemieux played in the past two seasons ??? ... to answer how you stated he's so productive at his age compared to gretzky.

why tear down gretzky to promote lemieux. if he was better, you wouldn't have to.

Gretzky's the best ever....deal with it !

 

[KOVALEV10*]

laughing on the floor kicking myself in the ass as it's become an uncontrollable tremor. how many games has lemieux played in the past two seasons ??? ... to answer how you stated he's so productive at his age compared to gretzky.

why tear down gretzky to promote lemieux. if he was better, you wouldn't have to.

Gretzky's the best ever....deal with it !

Yeah what a smart answer... you probably think you know everything and if someone doesnt agree with you then they're wrong.

 

[Hawker14]

ask Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Bobby Hull, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, and Mark Messier who is the best player of all of all time... and all 5 of them vote for Gretzky, including Mario.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

ask Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Bobby Hull, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, and Mark Messier who is the best player of all of all time... and all 5 of them vote for Gretzky, including Mario.

Um... Bobby Hull votes for Bobby Orr you know. Gordie Howe votes for the Rocket. Mark Messier obviously votes for Gretzky because they were best friends.

 

[Hawker14]

wow, and no votes for your boy mario....hmmmm !!!

 

[KOVALEV10*]

wow, and no votes for your boy mario....hmmmm !!!

Yeah Mario obviously votes for Gretzky.. the guy was too young to have seen Howe and Richard play as well as Orr at his prime.. so he obviously will vote for Gretzky.

 

[Hawker14]

what's next...

tina fey isn't the hottest chick on snl ?

 

[KOVALEV10*]

what's next...

tina fey isn't the hottest chick on snl ?

:lol That was pretty good man

 

[CoupeStanley]

I think that Gretzky fans should keep respect of Lemieux fans. It's actually really close.

My own choice is Lemieux. Watched him in the old forum. Ironically the same night I meet the Rocket. That was really weird. There was that dumb guy in a hurry, he was like hey move out of here old shmuck. We were like That guy is crazy it's the Rocket. Shook his hand and all. It was pretty cool!

 

[soulok*]

this is getting pathetic

Ok Kovalev10 you need some serious check. All of a sudden your an expert about Gretzky versus Lemieux?

LOL
Just by saying "show me a clip where GRETZKY dekes at least 2 players out" defaces your previous arguments on Gretzky versus Lemieux. If you are that stupid to actually defemate Gretzky's skills as a hockey player u need to watch Gretzkys Ultimate DVD Your starting to just sound like fanboy with your useless facts!!! The funniest part about that whole argument you probably beleive your arguments are justified. Your Hillarious. I think Mario Lemieux is an amazing hockey player and his skills are really legendary. But I am not stupid enough to actually base my arguments on it. LOL

Gretzky never learned his skills you can't teach a player how to think a game and niether can you teach a player the passion for the game. GRETZKY TAUGHT LEMIEUX how much success you can have playing with passion. Before Canada Cup 87 Lemieux was at best a 140 to 150 point player.

Lets look at facts shall we????

1. Wayne Gretzky scored his 700th career goal in game number 866!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=1506982&type=news
2. Mario Lemieux has played 889 games and has 683 goals
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/profile?statsId=66

3. At the pace Lemieux is scoring it would take him another 40 games to get to 700 thus 700 in around 929 games. Thats 63 less games for Gretzky then Lemieux.

4. Uh oh Lemieux just got his ass kicked in what hes supposed to be better at??????????????

5. For the first 1000 games of there careers Gretzky will be better.

6. I dont care what era Lemieux plays in he could never score 50 goals in 39 games!!! niether can he ever achieve over 163 assists in one season!!! Every single player besides lowe and coffey that played with Gretz like Messier!!!! Anderson !!!! Tikkz!! Kurri!! were not even first round picks. Yet Gretzky's extraordinary ability to make players around him better players lifted that team to amazing heights!! Lemieux had a similarly talented team in the 93 penguins. Guess what. Most of those players were actually 1st round picks that made a name for themselves. Jagr didnt need lemieux!!Niether did francis .. or Recchi etc. Gretzky was sooo GOOD! he made Lemieux better in 87!

7. If you want to choose Lemieux as a better player by all means choose him. But to actually choose him because u THINK he could have done better.And Gretzky is not as good as the records hes set. then actually saying that makes you sound well

8. GRETZKY DID what LEMIEUX should have done but could not. #66 Lemieux was amazing but #99 Gretzky was the man.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Ok Kovalev10 you need some serious check. All of a sudden your an expert about Gretzky versus Lemieux?

LOL
Just by saying "show me a clip where GRETZKY dekes at least 2 players out" defaces your previous arguments on Gretzky versus Lemieux. If you are that stupid to actually defemate Gretzky's skills as a hockey player u need to watch Gretzkys Ultimate DVD Your starting to just sound like fanboy with your useless facts!!! The funniest part about that whole argument you probably beleive your arguments are justified. Your Hillarious. I think Mario Lemieux is an amazing hockey player and his skills are really legendary. But I am not stupid enough to actually base my arguments on it. LOL

Gretzky never learned his skills you can't teach a player how to think a game and niether can you teach a player the passion for the game. GRETZKY TAUGHT LEMIEUX how much success you can have playing with passion. Before Canada Cup 87 Lemieux was at best a 140 to 150 point player.

Lets look at facts shall we????

1. Wayne Gretzky scored his 700th career goal in game number 866!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=1506982&type=news
2. Mario Lemieux has played 889 games and has 683 goals
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/profile?statsId=66

3. At the pace Lemieux is scoring it would take him another 40 games to get to 700 thus 700 in around 929 games. Thats 63 less games for Gretzky then Lemieux.

4. Uh oh Lemieux just got his ass kicked in what hes supposed to be better at??????????????

5. For the first 1000 games of there careers Gretzky will be better.

6. I dont care what era Lemieux plays in he could never score 50 goals in 39 games!!! niether can he ever achieve over 163 assists in one season!!! Every single player besides lowe and coffey that played with Gretz like Messier!!!! Anderson !!!! Tikkz!! Kurri!! were not even first round picks. Yet Gretzky's extraordinary ability to make players around him better players lifted that team to amazing heights!! Lemieux had a similarly talented team in the 93 penguins. Guess what. Most of those players were actually 1st round picks that made a name for themselves. Jagr didnt need lemieux!!Niether did francis .. or Recchi etc. Gretzky was sooo GOOD! he made Lemieux better in 87!

7. If you want to choose Lemieux as a better player by all means choose him. But to actually choose him because u THINK he could have done better.And Gretzky is not as good as the records hes set. then actually saying that makes you sound well

8. GRETZKY DID what LEMIEUX should have done but could not. #66 Lemieux was amazing but #99 Gretzky was the man.

Man sorry to say this but are you a little dumb? I just told you that I own a copy of the Ultimate Gretzky dvd so obviously I have watched him. I've watched his 16 minute highlight video that had been posted here as well. I've also seen his hall of fame spotlight video and many many of his games. I still havent seen him deke two guys at once my friend.

Yeah that's what happens when you miss like 300 games in your prime due to injuries.

Um... just because Gretzky scored 50 in 39 doesnt make him the greatest. Gretzky had better linemates to start with then Lemieux as well which really helped him.

You're so stupid if you think that players like Messier and Coffee and Kurri and Anderson and Tikkanen werent great players.

Man just because Gretzky thought Lemieux doesnt make him the greatest. Gretzky said that he learned from Lafleur if you didnt read my post but that doesnt mean Lafleur was better then Gretzky.

No. 66 was amazing you got that right but he was also the man!

 

[psycho_dad*]

Mario. No question in my mind.

 

[soulok*]

Lol

"Man sorry to say this but are you a little dumb? I just told you that I own a copy of the Ultimate Gretzky dvd so obviously I have watched him. I've watched his 16 minute highlight video that had been posted here as well. I've also seen his hall of fame spotlight video and many many of his games. I still havent seen him deke two guys at once my friend.

Yeah that's what happens when you miss like 300 games in your prime due to injuries.

Um... just because Gretzky scored 50 in 39 doesnt make him the greatest. Gretzky had better linemates to start with then Lemieux as well which really helped him.

You're so stupid if you think that players like Messier and Coffee and Kurri and Anderson and Tikkanen werent great players.

Man just because Gretzky thought Lemieux doesnt make him the greatest. Gretzky said that he learned from Lafleur if you didnt read my post but that doesnt mean Lafleur was better then Gretzky.

No. 66 was amazing you got that right but he was also the man!"

MY REPLY:

If you did see the dvd then you must obviously be a fanboy. Lets see some of Lemieuxs statistics in his prime compared to Gretzky. You are making yourself look bad. Choose Lemieux but plzzzz don't try to justify what if's. Makes you look dumb not me. I got facts while you got a mouth. I thought as informational as my previous post was you would shut up and at least not post in this forum again. But


Gretzky
83-84 Edmonton Oilers 74!! 87!! 118 205!!
81-82 Edmonton Oilers 80 92! 120 212!
85-86 Edmonton Oilers 80 52 163! 215!
84-85 Edmonton Oilers 80 73 135! 208!
Lemieux
92-93 Pittsburgh Penguins 60!! 69!! 91 160!!
88-89 Pittsburgh Penguins 76 85 114 199
87-88 Pittsburgh Penguins 77 70 98 168
91-92 Pittsburgh Penguins 64 44 87 131

Take out the calculator and record PPG ok? maybe you'll get it through that thick head. For the information Yes Messier ,Coffey,Kurri and co were amazing hockey players. If Gretzky had not joined the Edmonton Oilers in 1979 they wouldnt be were they are today. Period. I find it rather repulsive arguing with somebody with such weak facts. Its pointless so plzz dont reply just read and understand. Gretzky was the Mofo Man

#99 Wayne Gretzky

 

[jiggs 10]

Bobby Hull, playing for the Jets. Saw him 3 times.

NHL-wise, Steve Yzerman and Joe Sakic and Peter Forsberg come to mind, as does Mike Modano and Patrick Roy. Somehow, I never saw Gretzky play live, just on TV.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

"Man sorry to say this but are you a little dumb? I just told you that I own a copy of the Ultimate Gretzky dvd so obviously I have watched him. I've watched his 16 minute highlight video that had been posted here as well. I've also seen his hall of fame spotlight video and many many of his games. I still havent seen him deke two guys at once my friend.

Yeah that's what happens when you miss like 300 games in your prime due to injuries.

Um... just because Gretzky scored 50 in 39 doesnt make him the greatest. Gretzky had better linemates to start with then Lemieux as well which really helped him.

You're so stupid if you think that players like Messier and Coffee and Kurri and Anderson and Tikkanen werent great players.

Man just because Gretzky thought Lemieux doesnt make him the greatest. Gretzky said that he learned from Lafleur if you didnt read my post but that doesnt mean Lafleur was better then Gretzky.

No. 66 was amazing you got that right but he was also the man!"

MY REPLY:

If you did see the dvd then you must obviously be a fanboy. Lets see some of Lemieuxs statistics in his prime compared to Gretzky. You are making yourself look bad. Choose Lemieux but plzzzz don't try to justify what if's. Makes you look dumb not me. I got facts while you got a mouth. I thought as informational as my previous post was you would shut up and at least not post in this forum again. But


Gretzky
83-84 Edmonton Oilers 74!! 87!! 118 205!!
81-82 Edmonton Oilers 80 92! 120 212!
85-86 Edmonton Oilers 80 52 163! 215!
84-85 Edmonton Oilers 80 73 135! 208!
Lemieux
92-93 Pittsburgh Penguins 60!! 69!! 91 160!!
88-89 Pittsburgh Penguins 76 85 114 199
87-88 Pittsburgh Penguins 77 70 98 168
91-92 Pittsburgh Penguins 64 44 87 131

Take out the calculator and record PPG ok? maybe you'll get it through that thick head. For the information Yes Messier ,Coffey,Kurri and co were amazing hockey players. If Gretzky had not joined the Edmonton Oilers in 1979 they wouldnt be were they are today. Period. I find it rather repulsive arguing with somebody with such weak facts. Its pointless so plzz dont reply just read and understand. Gretzky was the Mofo Man

#99 Wayne Gretzky

Um... what if-s make me look dumb? Just that sentence makes you look like a complete ignorant person. The PPG-s are very close my friend despite Lemieux playing on weaker teams in most of his prime compared to Gretzky. Also Lemieux had to face much better goalies then Gretzky. Oh and Lemieux was hit by injuries so much in his prime unlike Gretzky!

 

[jiggs 10]

Um... what if-s make me look dumb? Just that sentence makes you look like a complete ignorant person. The PPG-s are very close my friend despite Lemieux playing on weaker teams in most of his prime compared to Gretzky. Also Lemieux had to face much better goalies then Gretzky. Oh and Lemieux was hit by injuries so much in his prime unlike Gretzky!

Uh, Gretzky's prime and Lemieux's prime were the same time! Lemieux is only 4 years younger than Gretz, came into the league 5 years after, and played against the exact same goalies until Gretz retired in 1999 (when Lemieux had ALREADY retired), so the "much better goalies" line is just wrong! And Gretz was injuried quite a bit in the early 90's (thanks to that cheap-ass Suter), plus when his dad had his brain anyurism he missed a bunch of games, and didn't play well when he DID return (who would?), so to say Lemieux is only behind Gretzky because of a few injuries is not correct. Gretzky was more durable (somehow) for a longer period. Lemieux had, arguabley, more talent. Gretzky had more heart and better vision and used his teammates better. Switch them around and sure, Mario wins one more Cup. But Pittsburgh would have been better quicker with Gretzky, and HE would have turned Mike Bullard into a 60 goal scorer! And Gretzky playing with Francis, Recchi, Jagr, Coffey, etc? Pens may have won 4 Cups in 5 years, too!

 

[GravityGrave]

Having been a fan since the early 90's, and having watched a lot of canucks games over the years, I've been able to see some of the greatest players of this generation (let alone ever) live, albeit not in their prime.


Gretzky (I remember being at his first game as a Blue @ GM Place)
Mario (I distinctly remember being at the game where he scored that between the legs goal on McLean)
Yzerman
LaFontaine
Bure (pure joy as a Canucks fan through the 90's, and easily the most entertaining player I've ever watched live)
Hull (never my favourite, but always a threat during his tenure with StLouis)
Lindros (I still am baffled by how many people forget how dominant he was, regardless of how he has declined)
Kariya
Jagr (see the comments about Lindros)
Forsberg & Sakic (as a duo made watching the Avs a treat - and have consistently owned the Canucks)

 

[Habsfan 32]

I only went to 2 NHL games in my life so live is hard to say but it's probably Vincent Lecavalier.

On T.V. the best as to be Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux is second behind him. The best goalie I've seen is Patrick Roy.

 

[HfxMoose]

Pavel Bure.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

^^^And when did I ever state that Kovalev is the next coming of christ. Are you a little drunk or something?


I think you must be drunk by saying Gretzky is the 3rd best. Im sure 99 percent of the people in here can contest to that. If Wayne never showed Mario how to play at a level higher then anyone else in Canada Cup 87. We would be comparing Mario to Sakics and Yzermans. not Gretzky. Oh well ur entitled to your opinion. Even though Wayne has played nearly 500 more games in his career than Mario. He STILL owns the best PPG average between the two.

END OF DEBATE: theres nothing you can say to bring a better fact to the table. Period!

i dont want to get into another mario/wayne debate, as it never really goes anywhere. however, thinking mario wouldn't be an elite player had gretzky not shown him how to win is ridiculous. he was putting up 100+ seasons as 19, 20 year old. of course those numbers are going to go up when he becomes 23, 24..gretzky or no gretzky. it's called hitting your prime. he was going to become a legend whether he played with gretzky or not. as great as yzerman and sakic are, saying mario would be at that level had he not played with gretzky is disrespectful to lemieux.