Who's the better Ronaldo, Brazilian or Portuguese?

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Was Maradona really better? From what I've read and clips I've seen...

1) The defending at times was absolutely atrocious on him.

2) He was not consistently at an ATG level (and Evilo brings it up a lot).

Maybe Maradona at his peak was better but depending on what you define as peak you could say a lot of players have had better single tournaments or seasons than many of the all time best. For me what defines an 'all time great' is not how talented they were or how good they were at their peak...but how consistently good they were and how long their primes were. Trophies are not necessities but they help obviously.

You can definitely find more talented players than Ronaldo throughout history but how many can match his consistency and longevity at the top? He's brought trophies, titles and goals galore everywhere he's gone and his work ethic is second to none. I think it's fair to consider him a top 5 player all time.

But again I don't like to compare across generations for many different reasons. Structure, training, video, talent, diet, etc. etc. are all different. Natural progression would suggest that players are constantly getting better, with better training, more instruction, more athletic, better diets, etc. etc. etc.

Obviously it's CR7's production that puts him in the top 5 of all time. Also his ability to change his role in the last couple seasons as he's losing some of his physical ability is impressive and looks like it'll prolong his prime.
 
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Suiteness

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Having more talent doesn't make you a better player. Quaresma had more talent as a youth product than almost any player at the time, including Ronaldo. He's not the better player. Being a good player has to do with being motivated, having the IQ to read and adapt to the game, and obviously the amount of skill you have. R9 had more natural talent which is clear to see. But he isn't the better player.

It's also about the legacy you leave behind. R9 (And George Weah as well, it must be said) redefined the way center forwards were playing the game. They were the ones who made an art form of dropping back into midfield to collect balls, switch flanks and terrorize defenders with their speed and their dribbling.

CR7 without a doubt had a better career but best for best, he doesn't even belong on the same pitch as R9.
 

Jussi

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Was Maradona really better? From what I've read and clips I've seen...

1) The defending at times was absolutely atrocious on him.

2) He was not consistently at an ATG level (and Evilo brings it up a lot).

Maybe Maradona at his peak was better but depending on what you define as peak you could say a lot of players have had better single tournaments or seasons than many of the all time best. For me what defines an 'all time great' is not how talented they were or how good they were at their peak...but how consistently good they were and how long their primes were. Trophies are not necessities but they help obviously.

His ankles, shins, calves and knees might disagree...
 

Evilo

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When was the last time Ronaldo dominated a CL final? A WC final? An EC final?

The answer is never. And all time great players should be able to bring it up at some point.
Pele did it, Maradona did it, Cruyff did it, Platini, Di Stefano, Messi all did it.

Ronaldo was a passenger in every single one.
 

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It's also about the legacy you leave behind. R9 (And George Weah as well, it must be said) redefined the way center forwards were playing the game. They were the ones who made an art form of dropping back into midfield to collect balls, switch flanks and terrorize defenders with their speed and their dribbling.

CR7 without a doubt had a better career but best for best, he doesn't even belong on the same pitch as R9.

In terms of pure skill absolutely not. But CR7's attacking IQ, and positioning is second to none. And that's what sets him apart from everyone else. And the fact that he's a bit of an egomaniac actually helped him a little bit
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

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Cruyff I can definitely agree with. Stefano I'm not sure he's quite there but very close.

Again, unless you've seen them play how can you judge?

Was Maradona really better? From what I've read and clips I've seen...

1) The defending at times was absolutely atrocious on him.

2) He was not consistently at an ATG level (and Evilo brings it up a lot).


But again I don't like to compare across generations for many different reasons. Structure, training, video, talent, diet, etc. etc. are all different. Natural progression would suggest that players are constantly getting better, with better training, more instruction, more athletic, better diets, etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, that's not true...like at all. Some argue you the opposite.

Obviously it's CR7's production that puts him in the top 5 of all time. Also his ability to his role in the last couple seasons as he's losing some of his physical ability is impressive and looks like it'll prolong his prime.

Numbers are all well good but I prefer players that are more involved than just the end product. Last couple of years he has become a poacher.

When was the last time Ronaldo dominated a CL final? A WC final? An EC final?

The answer is never. And all time great players should be able to bring it up at some point.
Pele did it, Maradona did it, Cruyff did it, Platini, Di Stefano, Messi all did it.

Ronaldo was a passenger in every single one.

This is true but sadly poachers goals have clouded people's judgement. Same as Bale's final in 2013. It was piss poor than boom tap in goal. Instant hero.

In terms of pure skill absolutely not. But CR7's attacking IQ, and positioning is second to none. And that's what sets him apart from everyone else. And the fact that he's a bit of an egomaniac actually helped him a little bit

Also not true.
 

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Was Maradona really better? From what I've read and clips I've seen...

1) The defending at times was absolutely atrocious on him.

:laugh::shakehead

Go on YouTube and type in 'Highlights Brazil VS Argentina 1990 WC'

Now, watch how every time Maradonna touches the ball, he gets hacked, kicked and fouled cynically.

Now by 1990, Maradonna had already lost a step since he had been getting kicked and hacked and slashed like this since 1980. This was pretty much the only way you could stop him. Ironically, the ONE time Brazil gave him space in that match he went on a run that created the winning goal.
 

les Habs

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Having more talent doesn't make you a better player. Quaresma had more talent as a youth product than almost any player at the time, including Ronaldo. He's not the better player. Being a good player has to do with being motivated, having the IQ to read and adapt to the game, and obviously the amount of skill you have. R9 had more natural talent which is clear to see. But he isn't the better player.

I never said that having more talent makes you the better player much less was I referring to any specific player. I was very obviously saying that while talent can overshadow results, the same can be said of results overshadowing talent. This thread demonstrates that along with other inaccuracies.
 

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Again, unless you've seen them play how can you judge?



Yeah, that's not true...like at all. Some argue you the opposite.



Numbers are all well good but I prefer players that are more involved than just the end product. Last couple of years he has become a poacher.



This is true but sadly poachers goals have clouded people's judgement. Same as Bale's final in 2013. It was piss poor than boom tap in goal. Instant hero.



Also not true.

Well for attackers the mosey important part of their game is their end product... And you're going to tell me that a player that has scored at a goal per game rate for the last 7 or 8 years doesn't have a near world best attacking IQ or positioning? You're just wrong. And instead of just saying yore incorrect I'd like to hear why you think all of us are wrong, because it just seems like you're opinion
 

Jussi

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When was the last time Ronaldo dominated a CL final? A WC final? An EC final?

The answer is never. And all time great players should be able to bring it up at some point.
Pele did it, Maradona did it, Cruyff did it, Platini, Di Stefano, Messi all did it.

Ronaldo was a passenger in every single one.

I guess you missed United's goal scorer in the 2008 UCL final....
 

YNWA14

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I was referring to a lot of his 'wonder' goals. Also the hacking, slashing and physicality of the past does not equate to good defending. Obviously it takes a great physical toll on the players, but some of the awareness, athletic ability, and control of space in the past was downright awful (which had a lot to do with them making up for it in cynical fouling).

When was the last time Ronaldo dominated a CL final? A WC final? An EC final?

The answer is never. And all time great players should be able to bring it up at some point.
Pele did it, Maradona did it, Cruyff did it, Platini, Di Stefano, Messi all did it.

Ronaldo was a passenger in every single one.

Anyway, as far as Ronaldo being a 'passenger' in single game examples...that doesn't determine his status as an ATG even if it were true (and it's not, in what way was he a passenger when United won the CL in 08? or their entire run in that CL) He often enough is the main driving force behind his team even making those finals. Obviously the penultimate game holds the most importance, but a semifinal can have just as much intensity or difficulty.

That Ronaldo 'disappears' in big games is a complete myth (not to say he's a massive big game player or anything, but it falls within his normal variation and consistency of play).

http://www.just-football.com/2012/0...-do-it-in-the-big-games-goals-analysis-stats/
http://www.squawka.com/news/the-sta...iano-ronaldo-is-not-a-flat-track-bully/680018
 

The Abusement Park

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I never said that having more talent makes you the better player much less was I referring to any specific player. I was very obviously saying that while talent can overshadow results, the same can be said of results overshadowing talent. This thread demonstrates that along with other inaccuracies.

I misunderstood your reply there, that's my bad!
 

les Habs

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Anyway, as far as Ronaldo being a 'passenger' in single game examples...that doesn't determine his status as an ATG even if it were true (and it's not, in what way was he a passenger when United won the CL in 08? or their entire run in that CL) He often enough is the main driving force behind his team even making those finals. Obviously the penultimate game holds the most importance, but a semifinal can have just as much intensity or difficulty.

That Ronaldo 'disappears' in big games is a complete myth (not to say he's a massive big game player or anything, but it falls within his normal variation and consistency of play).

http://www.just-football.com/2012/0...-do-it-in-the-big-games-goals-analysis-stats/
http://www.squawka.com/news/the-sta...iano-ronaldo-is-not-a-flat-track-bully/680018

Yes, Ronaldo does indeed show up in some big matches as I have said multiple times on this forum. That said both of those links you posted are ridiculous and don't do much to demonstrate what they're seem to be purporting to do.
 

Mount Suribachi

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:laugh::shakehead

Go on YouTube and type in 'Highlights Brazil VS Argentina 1990 WC'

Now, watch how every time Maradonna touches the ball, he gets hacked, kicked and fouled cynically.

Now by 1990, Maradonna had already lost a step since he had been getting kicked and hacked and slashed like this since 1980. This was pretty much the only way you could stop him. Ironically, the ONE time Brazil gave him space in that match he went on a run that created the winning goal.

Yeah, Italia 90 really was the nadir for cynical play. Todays "look at an attacker and get booked" reffing is a direct consequence of that tournament, it all started to change after that. Like someone else said, Maradonna was nowhere near his 86 level (and how could he be, he was a god amongst men that year), but from game 1 he was kicked all over the park.
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

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Well for attackers the mosey important part of their game is their end product... And you're going to tell me that a player that has scored at a goal per game rate for the last 7 or 8 years doesn't have a near world best attacking IQ or positioning? You're just wrong. And instead of just saying yore incorrect I'd like to hear why you think all of us are wrong, because it just seems like you're opinion

Mueller's IQ and positioning is better as is Messi's. I'm not saying Ronaldo doesn't have world class IQ/positioning but it's not the best in the world.
 

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Mueller's IQ and positioning is better as is Messi's. I'm not saying Ronaldo doesn't have world class IQ/positioning but it's not the best in the world.

Messi's higher sure, but I'm not sure about Muller. His is obviously super high but higher than CR7? No way. It's messi and CR7 at 1 & 2 by a comfortable margin.
 

Evilo

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Ronaldo wasn't even good in that 2008 final ! :laugh:
And he did manage to miss his PK IIRC :biglaugh:
 

Deficient Mode

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Ronaldo wasn't only more talented than Cristiano, he used that talent to greater effect, only over a shorter period. Tired of stereotypes about lazy Brazilians.

And Cristiano isn't flashy but effective? Please. Athleticism is the flashiest attribute of all by far.

In terms of pure skill absolutely not. But CR7's attacking IQ, and positioning is second to none. And that's what sets him apart from everyone else. And the fact that he's a bit of an egomaniac actually helped him a little bit

Messi's higher sure, but I'm not sure about Muller. His is obviously super high but higher than CR7? No way. It's messi and CR7 at 1 & 2 by a comfortable margin.

Jesus Christ. Cristiano the smartest in the world? Not even close.
 

YNWA14

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For someone really high on Muller I'm surprised that you don't have more respect for Ronaldo's play. As a 'space investigator', as Muller would put it, Ronaldo is even better...even putting aside his athleticism and higher level of talent.
 

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Ronaldo wasn't only more talented than Cristiano, he used that talent to greater effect, only over a shorter period. Tired of stereotypes about lazy Brazilians.

And Cristiano isn't flashy but effective? Please. Athleticism is the flashiest attribute of all by far.





Jesus Christ. Cristiano the smartest in the world? Not even close.

Ummm... He's the second best player in the world and the second best attacker in the world. He is clearly one of the smartest players in the attacking third in the world. You don't score 260 goals in 230 games by being dumb. Also did R9 use his talent to greater effect? Ronaldo has scored more and won more than R9. Cristiano has won 3 Ballon d'Ors. That's tied for the 2nd most of all time and could possibly win a 4th to tie Messi.
 

Deficient Mode

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Ummm... He's the second best player in the world and the second best attacker in the world. He is clearly one of the smartest players in the attacking third in the world. You don't score 260 goals in 230 games by being dumb. Also did R9 use his talent to greater effect? Ronaldo has scored more and won more than R9. Cristiano has won 3 Ballon d'Ors. That's tied for the 2nd most of all time and could possibly win a 4th to tie Messi.

So where's your support for the notion that a player has to be smart to score a lot? Because there are plenty of other physical and technical skills at which a player can dominate that allow him to score a bunch of goals.

Cristiano's intelligence is very limited. He's great at getting into positions to score, but he's very bad at making space for others, and his choice of pass and timing of actions is at times horrendous. You will NEVER see a player with world class intelligence have a passage of play like this:

 

Corto

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Ronaldo wasn't only more talented than Cristiano, he used that talent to greater effect, only over a shorter period. Tired of stereotypes about lazy Brazilians.

Again, some of you guys find insane reasonings to compare 34 goals in 37 games (Ronaldo's peak) to 48 goals in 35 games (Cristiano's peak).
And don't mention competition and depth etc., that Barca team had only two real competitors in Real and Valencia, much like Real today has only two real competitors in Barca and Atletico.
And before someone mentions "derp goals" again, Ronaldo was a freaking striker. Through and through.

Some of the stuff in this thread is just mindboggling.
Now we're suddenly calling CR7 a choker or something? There were people who performed better in big games, in one game?
Calling Ronaldo a "passenger" in his teams is just ridiculous. I mean, seriously...
 

Deficient Mode

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Again, some of you guys find insane reasonings to compare 34 goals in 37 games (Ronaldo's peak) to 48 goals in 35 games (Cristiano's peak).
And don't mention competition and depth etc., that Barca team had only two real competitors in Real and Valencia, much like Real today has only two real competitors in Barca and Atletico.
And before someone mentions "derp goals" again, Ronaldo was a freaking striker. Through and through.

Some of the stuff in this thread is just mindboggling.
Now we're suddenly calling CR7 a choker or something? There were people who performed better in big games, in one game?
Calling Ronaldo a "passenger" in his teams is just ridiculous. I mean, seriously...

Yeah don't mention any factors that would put those goal totals into context. Don't relativize by era or teammates or roles - just vapid stereotypes about what wingers and strikers do - or adjust for penalties. Just admire the mere goal totals... that tells you everything you need to know about a striker.

The only mindboggling thing is that you continue to pretend like those goal totals make it a slam dunk case in Cristiano's favor.
 

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Yeah don't mention any factors that would put those goal totals into context. Don't relativize by era or teammates or roles - just vapid stereotypes about what wingers and strikers do - or adjust for penalties. Just admire the mere goal totals... that tells you everything you need to know about a striker.

The only mindboggling thing is that you continue to pretend like those goal totals make it a slam dunk case in Cristiano's favor.

THEY'RE ATTACKERS. Of course goal totals are going to have the biggest affect on who the better player is. I don't get how people don't realize how f'ing good CR7 is, honestly in 20 years we're going to look back and be able to say he genuinely is of the best attacker and players to ever play the game. Ridiculous.
 

Acallabeth

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Messi's higher sure, but I'm not sure about Muller. His is obviously super high but higher than CR7? No way. It's messi and CR7 at 1 & 2 by a comfortable margin.
Comfortable margin? Dahell you're talking about? If there's one quality CR lacks (comparing to most all time greats), it's his field IQ, he often makes weird decisions and relies on his physical abilities more than almost any other top player ever :dunno:

And don't mention competition and depth etc., that Barca team had only two real competitors in Real and Valencia, much like Real today has only two real competitors in Barca and Atletico.
Utter nonsense :laugh: the current parity isn't anywhere near it was in mid-late 1990s. There's no argument here. Cristiano Ronaldo's competition is very much inferior.

Real and Barcelona have been the top 2 teams in La Liga for 8 years out of the last 10 years, they haven't failed to medal since 2004. The last 5 years, 4 teams have medaled.
During 1995-2000 alone, there were 4 different champions, 9 teams medaled, Real finished 6th and 4th the 2 years surrounding their championship in 1996/7.
The champion and the 5th team were usually separated by ~15 points, while the 2010s La Liga has this number at 30-45.

Hell, Deportivo had 1 less medal and 1 less championship than Real in the 1990s.

The matter brought up late last page is very true as well, football was much rougher and more physical 20 years ago.
Calling Ronaldo a "passenger" in his teams is just ridiculous. I mean, seriously...
Ronaldo sure isn't a passenger, but he also isn't a dominant big game player. All players who are considered all time greats were/are great big game players.
Then again, there's always an argument that even Pele didn't really carry the Brazilian team to those 3 World Championships (though he was better than CR). It's silly to make bold claims discussing players of different eras.
 
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