Who's the 5th best ever?

[wetcoast]

That’s just your opinion if you stop and think about it

So you really can't back that up then?

Anyone can say that Player X (insert any players name) was a top 5 player of all time, Lafleur only has 6 top 10 scoring finishes and outside of that incredible 6 year peak, the rest of his career ie, seasons 7, 8, 9 ect isn't even in the top 100 probably.

 

[Ducks in a row]

Dominik Hasek

1993-94 NHL Vezina Trophy

1993-94 NHL William M. Jennings Trophy

1994-95 NHL Vezina Trophy

1996-97 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy

1996-97 NHL Ted Lindsay Award

1996-97 NHL Vezina Trophy

1997-98 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy

1997-98 NHL Ted Lindsay Award

1997-98 NHL Vezina Trophy

1998-99 NHL Vezina Trophy

2000-01 NHL Vezina Trophy

2000-01 NHL William M. Jennings Trophy

2007-08 NHL William M. Jennings Trophy

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Better Sv% and GAA in the playoffs then regular season

 

[Thenameless]

So you really can't back that up then?

Anyone can say that Player X (insert any players name) was a top 5 player of all time, Lafleur only has 6 top 10 scoring finishes and outside of that incredible 6 year peak, the rest of his career ie, seasons 7, 8, 9 ect isn't even in the top 100 probably.

You're hurtin' me man. We also gotta remember that apart from Gretzky, and maybe Bossy, part of what makes Lafleur's peak the best is his combination of both regular season and playoff performances. Unfortunately, though he did start slow, and the Habs quickly fell apart after the dynasty along with him getting a serious injury.

 

[Buffdog]

Surprised as the lack of mention for Ron Francis

 

[Whaleafs]

So you really can't back that up then?

Anyone can say that Player X (insert any players name) was a top 5 player of all time, Lafleur only has 6 top 10 scoring finishes and outside of that incredible 6 year peak, the rest of his career ie, seasons 7, 8, 9 ect isn't even in the top 100 probably.

There’s no clear cut metrics of what constitutes the 5th best player that’s why there’s a discussion. Beliveau is on the list and Lafleur has about the same amount of hardware as him outside of Cups. There’s plenty of others not in the poll that could be considered, Esposito, Dryden, Mikita. I have no reason to back anything up because you said Hasek and I consider goaltenders a separate list, therefore you are wrong.

 

[wetcoast]

You're hurtin' me man. We also gotta remember that apart from Gretzky, and maybe Bossy, part of what makes Lafleur's peak the best is his combination of both regular season and playoff performances. Unfortunately, though he did start slow, and the Habs quickly fell apart after the dynasty along with him getting a serious injury.

Look he was the best forward on that Habs dynasty but seriously look at his resume outside of that 6 year peak and it's just plain weak when comparing other players vying for the 5th all time spot.

The HOH section of these boards had him 23rd and even there that might be a bit generous.

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

 

[wetcoast]

There’s no clear cut metrics of what constitutes the 5th best player that’s why there’s a discussion. Beliveau is on the list and Lafleur has about the same amount of hardware as him outside of Cups. There’s plenty of others not in the poll that could be considered, Esposito, Dryden, Mikita. I have no reason to back anything up because you said Hasek and I consider goaltenders a separate list, therefore you are wrong.

There are at least 10 position players with better resumes.

And when comparing players people should use as many metrics as possible.

Peak, prime, career, 2 way play, individual playoff and regular season performance international play ect...

If we take goalies out of the equation I would take crosby with his body of work to date.

Lidstrom and Bourque are also in the equation.

The 3 guys you mentioned all have reasons why they aren't serious candidates for the 5th best player.

 

[wetcoast]

Surprised as the lack of mention for Ron Francis

not as surprised that his name is being mentioned here.

Zero case for 5th best player of all time.

 

[Whaleafs]

There are at least 10 position players with better resumes.

And when comparing players people should use as many metrics as possible.

Peak, prime, career, 2 way play, individual playoff and regular season performance international play ect...

If we take goalies out of the equation I would take crosby with his body of work to date.

Lidstrom and Bourque are also in the equation.

The 3 guys you mentioned all have reasons why they aren't serious candidates for the 5th best player.

So when the HOH section lists Lafleur at 23 that is valid, but when you move Hasek up 8 spots higher than the list it’s because they the list is wrong, right ? Body of work, sure, Lafleur had a short peak but was still the best player on possibly the best team in league history and was at least the best player for the years between Orr & Gretzky. And somehow he still managed to become the leading scorer in Habs franchise history.

 

[wetcoast]

So when the HOH section lists Lafleur at 23 that is valid, but when you move Hasek up 8 spots higher than the list it’s because they the list is wrong, right ?

Body of work, sure, Lafleur had a short peak but was still the best player on possibly the best team in league history and

So what again that doesn't super inflate what he did as an individual does it?

I'm sure Jagr would have loved to have the equivalent of the Habs big 3 on defense and Dryden in net and Jacques lemaire and the depth the Habs had.....

This best player on a dynasty thing gets so over rated and it's a product of SC counting that often occurs.

Switch Dionne and Lafleur and the Habs still are a dynasty and maybe dionne is viewed as much better than Guy given the same regular season performances?

was at least the best player for the years between Orr & Gretzky.

So what? Being the best player for a period of 5 or 6 years is something that maybe a dozen other guys could point to.

Or do you want to inflate Lafleur just because he fell in between Orr and Gretzky?

that doesn't make his best player in the league run any better than say Bobby Hull or Jean Beliveau or any other players on it's own.

Also, I'm not sure what years you are using but Denis Potvin is probably in play as well.

And somehow he still managed to become the leading scorer in Habs franchise history.

Again that's great but doesn't mean alot in and off itself since Lafleur played in the high scoring 70's and 80's.

Jean had 27 less points in a much lower scoring era for instance.

 

[Not Canada Drai]

The Dominator

A I N E C

 

[JackSlater]

Surprised as the lack of mention for Ron Francis

There isn't even a single season where Francis was a top five player, better yet the fifth best player ever.

 

[wetcoast]

There isn't even a single season where Francis was a top five player, better yet the fifth best player ever.

I think he has a case for top 5 in 94-95, but ya it's pretty obvious he isn't in the running for 5th of all time or even 50th really.

 

[JackSlater]

I think he has a case for top 5 in 94-95, but ya it's pretty obvious he isn't in the running for 5th of all time or even 50th really.

No room even that year. Jagr, Hasek, Lindros, Bourque, Chelios, Coffey. Right or wrong he didn't even make the second all star team ahead of Zhamnov that year.

 

[wetcoast]

No room even that year. Jagr, Hasek, Lindros, Bourque, Chelios, Coffey. Right or wrong he didn't even make the second all star team ahead of Zhamnov that year.

I think there is room for him among the position players as the 3 Dmen didn't have their strongest seasons and Coffey was a PP monster that year but the point is still taken if there is an argument either way for only a single year he is in the running for 5th best player ever as much as Mats Sundin which is to say he most definitely isn't.

 

[JackSlater]

I think there is room for him among the position players as the 3 Dmen didn't have their strongest seasons and Coffey was a PP monster that year but the point is still taken if there is an argument either way for only a single year he is in the running for 5th best player ever as much as Mats Sundin which is to say he most definitely isn't.

Sure, but there is no argument for the one year that you listed, certainly not ahead of any of the listed players. Francis has no argument for being a top five player in any season.

 

[wetcoast]

Sure, but there is no argument for the one year that you listed, certainly not ahead of any of the listed players. Francis has no argument for being a top five player in any season.

Sure there is an argument for that season as alot of Jagr's progress into a superstar was under the wing of Francis as his center.

Francis was 5th in points, 1st in assists and also won the Selke that year.

Francis also played alot on the PK for the Pens that year.

Coffey was a PP monster but was a second unit PK guy.

Also according to one frequent poster around here fetisov played a larger role for those Wings teams than his stats indicate.

Bourque was very good but it wasn't one of his greatest seasons, as he relied on the PP for 27 of his 43 points,

Chelios would have gotten my Norris vote for that year.

 

[JackSlater]

Sure there is an argument for that season as alot of Jagr's progress into a superstar was under the wing of Francis as his center.

Francis was 5th in points, 1st in assists and also won the Selke that year.

Francis also played alot on the PK for the Pens that year.

Coffey was a PP monster but was a second unit PK guy.

Also according to one frequent poster around here fetisov played a larger role for those Wings teams than his stats indicate.

Bourque was very good but it wasn't one of his greatest seasons, as he relied on the PP for 27 of his 43 points,

Chelios would have gotten my Norris vote for that year.

He was fifth in points because he was fortunate enough to be Jagr's centre, not because he was particularly close to the fifth best offensive player in hockey that year. Full credit for being a very good two way player though. It was a strong season and maybe he was a fringe candidate for being a top ten player, but very few people in 1995 were going to select Ron Francis as one of hockey's five best players. There is no need to pretend that Coffey didn't have a great season that year, because he certainly did and was well ahead of Francis. It's probably the season in which Coffey played his best defence, while he still finished top ten in scoring. Bourque not being at his best isn't really relevant when he's compared to Francis, because the late-prime version of Bourque was still better than any version of Francis. Again, not that voting is perfect but Francis didn't even finish ahead of Zhamnov when it came time to vote for second team all star centre.

It sounds like a top five season if you look solely at his scoring placement and the Selke win but it really wasn't. It's a lot closer to a top five season than Francis is to a top five player of all time though.

 

[AvroArrow]

Jagr or Sid

 

[wetcoast]

As for the poll, Crosby is off to a great start and just adding even more to his resume.

 

[newfy]

Hull and Beliveau are the usual #5 candidates. Some other notables:

5th best peak - Hasek (only player to have a peak comparable to the Big 4) but his prime and playoffs is lacking

5th best offensive player - Jagr has a good argument but his all around game and playoffs are lacking

5th best career after 14 seasons/by age 31 - Crosby has the best argument; perhaps only needs one or two more elite seasons to take the #5 spot

I dont think its fair to say Haseks prime is lacking. He has 6 Vezinas against the best goaltending competition at the position of all time. When I think peak I think of a 1/2/3 year peak but a 6-8 year period could definitely be their prime. So 6 years as the best at his position plus a few more very high end seasons, youre looking at roughly 8 or 9 years of elite play from Hasek.

Playoff resume lacks because of so much time spent in Buffalo for sure but if they win that cup against Dallas the narrative is completely changed too. But still it isnt great. He also has that gold medal in Nagano that helps kinda balance out the playoff aspect.

I dont really like ranking goalies along side players but if we're doing it here I think Hasek has a very strong claim to 5th best. I'm not sure he actually was 5th best all time because goalies are tough but I think hes the hardest one to argue against at this spot as well

 

[Thenameless]

I'm sure Jagr would have loved to have the equivalent of the Habs big 3 on defense and Dryden in net and Jacques lemaire and the depth the Habs had.....

Switch Dionne and Lafleur and the Habs still are a dynasty and maybe dionne is viewed as much better than Guy given the same regular season performances?


So what? Being the best player for a period of 5 or 6 years is something that maybe a dozen other guys could point to.

Or do you want to inflate Lafleur just because he fell in between Orr and Gretzky?

Both Jagr and Lemieux had a chance to make their own dynasty, and I was cheering for both of them to do so after they won their first two Cups together. They failed to make it three in a row in Game 7 against an Islanders team that they should have beaten handily. The Bruins team that had the Habs in trouble in Game 7 of the 1979 Semi's was much better than the 1993 Islanders - Lafleur saved the Habs against those Bruins.

I agree that if Dionne and Lafleur had switched places, history could be written very differently (I actually feel bad for Dionne with respect to this specific scenario). However, other stars have been put into pressure situations before and while some succeed, some also fail. What we do know is that Lafleur succeeded under the greatest pressure, and that's really all that he could have done. He's a big part of why the Habs ran the table for four straight years. Even superior players in Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux faltered when their teams were overwhelming favourites to win it all.

So, in short, yes Lafleur's resume falls very short of that of other greats when it comes to body of work and longevity. But, it could also be said that his peak matches even the best of the best, especially where results are concerned. I don't necessarily want the guy who's guaranteed to win the Art Ross every year; I'd rather have an Art Ross candidate that's guaranteed to show up big in the playoffs every year. There is a subtle, but real difference there.

 

[smoneil]

It's a tie between every third string goalie to make their league debut against the Rangers. For many of them, that was the only NHL game of their career, but it was damn Vezina worthy.

 

[Snowpants]

I can see argument for Jagr over Hull but three times the votes??? Dumb

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Ron Francis is such an odd pick. If someone were to choose him, presumably it's on the basis of his high career totals (which overstates how good he was as an offensive talent). Using that reasoning, why not pick Messier? He has higher career totals, a clearly higher peak, and a clearly better playoff resume. True, he wasn't quite as good defensively, but it's a small difference relative to everything else in Messier's favour.

To be clear, Messier has zero argument for 5th place - but Francis is even less deserving.