Who would you rather have, prospect/rookies/sophomores edition:

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BlueAndWhite

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Beakermania said:
And its not strange when you pick Coliacovo (shown little in any of his NHL games) over Komisarek (who looked real good in the playoffs).

We all have a bit of homerism in us, so don't be so critical when it u see it someone else.

P.S. i did go Steen over Loui
God damn, that's twice I'm defending Leaf prospects in this thread alone.

I'm just curious as to how 4 games is enough to determine whether Colaiacovo has shown little or lots ?

Did you watch the games ? Are you just going by the 2 points in 4 games? (I'm sincerely interested here, not trying to be sarcastic)

In my opinion, Colaiacovo looked very good in 2 of those games. And average in the other 2. However, 4 games playing limited minutes (around 13 minutes a game) is not enough to judge a young defenseman both in a positive and negative light.

By the same token - Komisarek played well in the playoffs (I wouldn't say "real good", though I did not watch all seven of his playoff games) but they were only seven games.

In his previous 67 NHL games, Komisarek hasn't shown me much and he's registered a mere 5 points (and yes I know point totals aren't everything).

I don't see what Komisarek has done so far (apart from his DECENT playoffs) to make you think that he is solidly ahead of Cola at this point ?

(and I guess this question goes out to anyone and everyone..because about 80% of the posters here, picked Komisarek)
 

Beakermania*

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BlueAndWhite said:
God damn, that's twice I'm defending Leaf prospects in this thread alone.

I'm just curious as to how 4 games is enough to determine whether Colaiacovo has shown little or lots ?

Did you watch the games ? Are you just going by the 2 points in 4 games? (I'm sincerely interested here, not trying to be sarcastic)

In my opinion, Colaiacovo looked very good in 2 of those games. And average in the other 2. However, 4 games playing limited minutes (around 13 minutes a game) is not enough to judge a young defenseman both in a positive and negative light.

By the same token - Komisarek played well in the playoffs (I wouldn't say "real good", though I did not watch all seven of his playoff games) but they were only seven games.

In his previous 67 NHL games, Komisarek hasn't shown me much and he's registered a mere 5 points (and yes I know point totals aren't everything).

I don't see what Komisarek has done so far (apart from his DECENT playoffs) to make you think that he is solidly ahead of Cola at this point ?

(and I guess this question goes out to anyone and everyone..because about 80% of the posters here, picked Komisarek)

I live in Hamilton so all i get is leaf games so yes i watched them. Its just strange to me that he can't crack the leafs lineup when guys like Aki Berg, and Drake Berehowsky are getting minutes. If he was what people in the toronto media hype him to be he should've cracked that d-core as it was prior to the Leetch trade. His offense is fine now, but his defensive play leaves a lot to be desired from what i have seen (wow sounds like Pilar or Kaberle.)

As far as Komi only having 5 pts, big deal he is a defensive defenceman not a pp guy, so that don't mean much to me at all. Anytime i have seen a Habs game, he has always impressed me with his positionning in his own end, and his ability to throw the big hit.
 

Captain Conservative

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BlueAndWhite said:
As it CURRENTLY stands, Steen is a possible second line two-way centre with first line, future captain potential. Eriksson is a possible third line winger, with second line potential.

I haven't watched the two prospects beyond a few clips, but everything i've read has me thinking that Erikkson has as much offensive potential as Steen.
 

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Beakermania said:
I live in Hamilton so all i get is leaf games so yes i watched them. Its just strange to me that he can't crack the leafs lineup when guys like Aki Berg, and Drake Berehowsky are getting minutes. If he was what people in the toronto media hype him to be he should've cracked that d-core as it was prior to the Leetch trade.
Aki Berg was playing as the Leafs #4 defenseman until that Leetch trade, and he was playing damn well. He's a good NHL defenseman, it's ignorant to put him in the same class as Drake Berehowsky. As for Drake, he was the Leafs #8/9 defenseman, when you have a veteran defenseman as your 8/9, you rarely bring in a developing young defenseman like Colaiacovo. It seems as if JFJ wants Colaiacovo to come in and play at the NHL level when he's ready to play a top 5 role, 82 games a season.

His offense is fine now, but his defensive play leaves a lot to be desired from what i have seen (wow sounds like Pilar or Kaberle.)
His offense is great and his defense is very good. According to St. John's coach, he was their #2 defenseman, just behind AHL veteran Marc Moro. Guys who leave a lot to be desired defensively don't play first pairing minutes in their rookie seasons at such a high level of hockey.

As for the "sounds like Pilar or Kaberle", Kaberle's defense is average... but Karel Pilar is a very decent defensive player. You rarely hear anyone speak negatively of his defensive play. For a #6/7 defenseman, he's pretty good.
 

leafaholix*

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Captain Conservative said:
I haven't watched the two prospects beyond a few clips, but everything i've read has me thinking that Erikkson has as much offensive potential as Steen.
I don't think anybody's questioning that, but Steen's two-way play as well as physical maturity puts him ahead of Eriksson. He's a much bigger and stronger player and can take big hits as well as dish out a couple here and there.
 

Beakermania*

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Pilar chases the puck way too much and gets himself out of position.
 

leafaholix*

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Beakermania said:
Pilar chases the puck way too much and gets himself out of position.
He rarely chases the puck... he does carry the puck though. And when he loses it, Pilar jumps back on defense... he rarely has brain farts while deep in the offensive zone with the puck.

We didn't see as much rushing the puck this past year as we did earlier on in his career.
 

BlueAndWhite

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Beakermania said:
I live in Hamilton so all i get is leaf games so yes i watched them. Its just strange to me that he can't crack the leafs lineup when guys like Aki Berg, and Drake Berehowsky are getting minutes. If he was what people in the toronto media hype him to be he should've cracked that d-core as it was prior to the Leetch trade. His offense is fine now, but his defensive play leaves a lot to be desired from what i have seen (wow sounds like Pilar or Kaberle.)
Just because player X is better than player Y, doesn't necessarily mean that player X will be on the team.

You have to take all the circumstances into account.

1.) Pat Quinn is not a rookie friendly coach.
2.) The Toronto Maple Leafs have a lot of older, expensive players that they can't necessarily send down.

Pat Quinn is VERY loyal to his veterans and is not as easily accomodating of younger players (in the six years that Quinn has been coach there have been only THREE. Tomas Kaberle, Nik Antropov, and Matt Stajan are the only players 21 and under to crack the squad on a full time basis. Just those three in six seasons).

As per the older, expensive players - look no further than Trevor Kidd. Mikeal Tellqvist has proven that he is a much better goaltender than Kidd. Mikeal Tellqvist has shown that he deserves the backup job. However, Trevor Kidd's contract and experience states that he remained the backup this year.

*Side-note: Aki Berg is 27 years old. He had a solid year for the Toronto Maple Leafs. He had his second good playoffs in a row. He has looked like a legit #5 (and at times, #4) d-man. If people can look past the fact, that he doesn't seem likely to justify his high draft position and he doesn't fully utilize his big frame - they will see what appears to be a solid hockey player.

Drake Berehowsky was a depth defender who played a mere 9 games for the Leafs this year. It was not like he had a significant role with the club. Could Cola have been on the Leafs squad over Drake ? Yes, but that would make no sense. What good does it do to his development to have him as the 8th/9th d-man on the club ?


I do agree that Colaiacovo is a tad over-hyped (due to overzealous fans who have done the same to Matt Stajan). I do not think he is the saviour, I do not think he is the next Wade Redden. However, I do see some good NHL potential in the kid. Top pairing potential.
 

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Andrei Kasistyin or Robbie Schremp

Marek Svatos or Joseph Balej

Denis Grebeshkov or Dion Phaneuf

Kirril Kolstov or Filip Novak

Steve Ott or Derek Roy

Stanislav Chistov or Ales Hemsky

Jani Rita or Jason Chimera

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Ilya Bryzgalov or Jason Bacashihua

Jussi Jokinen or Antti Miettinen

Matt Nickerson or Mike Egener

Lukas Kraijcek or Ron Hainsey

Mike Komarisek or Carlo Colaiacovo

Alexander Steen or Loui Eriksson

Christian Berglund or Pavol Brendl
 

Beakermania*

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I agree that you don't call a kid up to sit in the pressbox that is counterproductive to development

That is why keeping Berehowsky and Kidd on the roster over Colo and Telly was a good move.

But when Belfour got hurt Telly jumped Kidd and started most of the games.

How come when Klee and others were hurt, why couldn't colo jump Berehowsky??
 

leafaholix*

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BlueAndWhite said:
I do agree that Colaiacovo is a tad over-hyped (due to overzealous fans who have done the same to Matt Stajan). I do not think he is the saviour, I do not think he is the next Wade Redden. However, I do see some good NHL potential in the kid. Top pairing potential.
Same could be said about most of Montreal's top prospects.

When you have fans that love a team so much, you tend to see a lot of players in the system get overhyped.
 

Beakermania*

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Leafaholix said:
Same could be said about most of Montreal's top prospects.

When you have fans that love a team so much, you tend to see a lot of players in the system get overhyped.

I agree that most teams fans probably overhype their prospects, ie Kastistyn is going to be good but not the second coming of Pavel Bure as some have called him on the Habs board.

But, fact is Montreal was chosen as number 1 in prospect depth by the panel of experts on this site, and I believe I remember reading that our own HFwriter "Montreal" didn't even participate in that vote.
 

leafaholix*

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Beakermania said:
But when Belfour got hurt Telly jumped Kidd and started most of the games.

How come when Klee and others were hurt, why couldn't colo jump Berehowsky??
You don't have Berehowsky as your #8/9 and then bring in Colaiacovo when one of your top 4 defensemen gets injured. It's rather contradictory, no?

Same goes with the goaltending situation... Tellqvist saw a lot of games when Belfour was gone, but the team wasn't playing well defensively... and he basically didn't want to ruin the kids confidence. That is why I believe he pulled Tellqvist after 1 period when the Leafs were playing rather mediocre defensively and were down a couple goals. He knew it wouldn't stop and wanting the veteran goalie to go in.
 

BlueAndWhite

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Captain Conservative said:
I haven't watched the two prospects beyond a few clips, but everything i've read has me thinking that Erikkson has as much offensive potential as Steen.
Well, I've read a tad different (take this very site for example, although I would take their analysis with a HUGE grain of salt).

The reason I personally believe Steen has better NHL offensive potential is for a few reasons which I stated in a previous post. I see Eriksson as a mucker. A guy who goes to the net, works along the boards, etc. I haven't read any reports on him having great offensive instincts. I haven't read or seen game footage of him, generate offense with his shot or off the rush.

Steen can do what Eriksson does (though he does not do it as often) but he is also a dangerous player on the rush.

I'll be the first to admit, I'm VERY high on Steen. I haven't been this excited about a Leaf prospect since Antropov (and there goes my credibility..ha)
 

Beakermania*

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Leafaholix said:
You don't have Berehowsky as your #8/9 and then bring in Colaiacovo when one of your top 4 defensemen gets injured. It's rather contradictory, no?

Its not contradictory at all if you believe that Colo is the better dman at that point in time. The argument you and blue and white made about him being in the minors was that he couldn't crack the top 6, so it was better to play in the minors than have him in the pressbox even if he was better than Berehowsky. (paraphrasing) But if he is better than Berehowsky and due to injuries you have to throw someone into the lineup, why not take the best player?? whats contradictory about that??
 

leafaholix*

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Beakermania said:
Its not contradictory at all if you believe that Colo is the better dman at that point in time. The argument you and blue and white made about him being in the minors was that he couldn't crack the top 6, so it was better to play in the minors than have him in the pressbox even if he was better than Berehowsky. (paraphrasing)
Yes, but if you have a guy like Berehowsky, and you're paying him $500,000... aren't you going to have him fill in for a couple games here and there when a couple of your top 6 are out?
 

Beakermania*

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Leafaholix said:
Yes, but if you have a guy like Berehowsky, and you're paying him $500,000... aren't you going to have him fill in for a couple games here and there when a couple of your top 6 are out?

If its a game here a game there yes, if its a two week + injury (klee), no bring in the guy who does the best job, regardless of salary.

We've gotten quite off-topic here though, so i'll just leave it as it stands for now and head to bed.
 

BlueAndWhite

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Beakermania said:
I agree that you don't call a kid up to sit in the pressbox that is counterproductive to development

That is why keeping Berehowsky and Kidd on the roster over Colo and Telly was a good move.

But when Belfour got hurt Telly jumped Kidd and started most of the games.

How come when Klee and others were hurt, why couldn't colo jump Berehowsky??
Well, there are a couple of reasons.

1.) Trevor Kidd is horrendous.
2.) A goalie situation is a bit different than a regular player. A team carries only so many goalies. As well, at this stage in the Leafs system, there is Tellqvist and no one else. The Leafs defense is different with the fact that older players like Pilar and Hedin are also jostling for a crack at some NHL ice-time.
3.) Tellan is in a different situation than Colaiacovo. He is at a different stage of his development. Colaiacovo played in his first AHL season this year, and is only 21. Tellan has had a few AHL seasons under his belt, and is 25 years old.
4.) Colaiacovo also had a rough AHL season in terms of injuries. He only played 62 games, so there is a chance that he could have been injured, coming off injury at a POSSIBLE time where there may have been playing time for him.*
 

BlueAndWhite

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Beakermania said:
If its a game here a game there yes, if its a two week + injury (klee), no bring in the guy who does the best job, regardless of salary.

We've gotten quite off-topic here though, so i'll just leave it as it stands for now and head to bed.
But when you have guys like Pilar and Marchment and (eventually Johansson) sitting in the pressbox, they are going to take precedent in this promotion system (esp. under a guy like Pat Quinn).

I've outlined other potential reasons in my previous post.
 

leafaholix*

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Beakermania said:
If its a game here a game there yes, if its a two week + injury (klee), no bring in the guy who does the best job, regardless of salary.
Two words... Pat Quinn.
 

Captain Conservative

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Leafaholix said:
I don't think anybody's questioning that, but Steen's two-way play as well as physical maturity puts him ahead of Eriksson. He's a much bigger and stronger player and can take big hits as well as dish out a couple here and there.


Actually, BlueandWhite mentioned something about their relative offensive potentials to the effect that Steen was better.
 

leafaholix*

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Captain Conservative said:
Actually, BlueandWhite mentioned something about their relative offensive potentials to the effect that Steen was better.
At this point he is, but saying that Eriksson may potentially be a better offensive player isn't out of the question... atleast I don't think.
 

Captain Conservative

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Leafaholix said:
At this point he is, but saying that Eriksson may potentially be a better offensive player isn't out of the question... atleast I don't think.


Yeah, I worded that wrong. Steen is unquestionably more NHL-ready than Eriksson, I just meant equal in terms of potential. I also think that Eriksson might have more potential on the attack, but Steen is the better prospect right now by a fair margin.
 

Ajacied

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Aside from Eriksson vs Steen, which matchup would you like to see in-depth? Preferably one that is close and can really go both ways..

Steve Ott or Derek Roy

or

Andrei Kasistyin or Robbie Schrempf
 

Vincent_TheGreat

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Andrei Kasistyin or Robbie Schremp

Marek Svatos or Joseph Balej

Denis Grebeshov or Dion Phaneuf

Kirril Kolstov or Filip Novak

Steve Ott or Derek Roy

Stanislav Chistov or Ales Hemsky

Jani Rita or Jason Chimera

Scotty Upshall or Steve Bernier

Ilya Bryzgalov or Jason Bacashihua

Jussi Jokinen or Antti Miettinen

Matt Nickerson or Mike Egener

Lukas Kraijcek or Ron Hainsey

Mike Komarisek or Carlo Colaiacovo

Alexander Steen or Loui Eriksson

Christian Berglund or Pavol Brendl
 
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