Who would go first overall in an alltime draft?

[MXD]

Well that just is not true. Fogarty had his breakout season TWO years after he was drafted (when he got 155 points) in 88/89. He was drafted in 1987.

He played 2 years before he was drafted and was very good but not a standout. 21 points in 47 games in 85/86 and 20 goals and 70 points in 56 games in his draft year. But he was an offensive D-Man with abunch of well known atitude problems at the time. He was not even remotely close to the level of Potvin or Orr who truly were standouts in the OHA at age 15 and were all around player not regarded by anyone as a problem player. Both would have possibly been drafted 1st overall as 15, 16, 17 and 18 year olds. Potvin had to wait until he was 20 to be drafted. He could have possibly been considered for the first overall pick for 5 years!

Fogarty had great talent but don't over-rate him.

By saying he could go 1st round, I'm not saying he would go ahead of Potvin or Orr... And there was hype around him, if only he could remain sober. The Mats Sundin quote about him is about the best I ever heard in hockey.

 

[toastman344*]

It wasn't just Hype...Fogarty WAS a Monster Talent...The Scouts knew this very well...He DID Break Orrs Records & that wasn't done with Smoke n Mirrors...

It was obvious , in hindsight, that Bryan was battling serious mental illness, from a young age...so he wasn't ( in that sense ) a typical teenager by any means...Fogarty lost the battle with his demons...as do many... perhaps most... victims of serious mental illness...one way or another...

It must've been brutal to suffer from such a crippling fear of the spotlight...as he did...Yet to be labeled a cant miss Super-Star & have that limelight always on you...No Wonder He Drank ( etcetera ) So Much...

 

[Melrose Munch]

Hi, long time watcher, first time poster

I feel that Mario Lemieux would first followed by Ericyo , because scouts look for 4 things

1. Speed
2. Size
3. Skill
4. Strength

 

[MXD]

Hi, long time watcher, first time poster

I feel that Mario Lemieux would first followed by Ericyo , because scouts look for 4 things

1. Speed
2. Size
3. Skill
4. Strength

Nice 1st post!
You forgot the most important S though...
Stache

 

[Melrose Munch]

Nice 1st post!
You forgot the most important S though...
Stache

Thanks!

 

[toastman344*]

I think it would be Orr...He Played on an OHL All Star Team vs. The Soviet Men's National Team...at age 15...We had only one pro , on our side...which was none other than Jacques Plante...Our Boyz Beat the CCCP'ers 2-1...Reportedly, Plante was Oustanding in that Game...BUT...

Orr was The Best Player On The Ice...For Either Side !

 

[Lindros_for_rizzle_]

Hi, long time watcher, first time poster

I feel that Mario Lemieux would first followed by Ericyo , because scouts look for 4 things

1. Speed
2. Size
3. Skill
4. Strength

You rock!

 

[Dropkick Alex]

The thing with Crosby is that he got hyped because he was good no doubt but he got a lot of comparisons to Gretzky. Gretzky was compared to Howe. Kinda wonder if there weren't any comparisons how much hype they would of gotten. If that makes sense...

 

[Sensfanman]

Like how much hype the first superstar got? Probably something like, think player X but stronger, faster, etc.

 

[JaymzB]

I wonder though, how much better would Gretzky have been in his second year of junior. Say he goes out and gets 200 points or more...how much does that increase his hype? Also, how many years of junior does he play?

 

[BNHL]

Well, this, amongst other things, culminating in this one :

In 1999 Fogarty was arrested and charged with drug possession after a break-in at a school in his hometown of Brantford. Fogarty was charged with break and enter and possession of a controlled substance. According to the police report, Fogarty broke open the kitchen doors at the Tollgate Technological Skills Centre and was found standing naked in the kitchen with cooking oil spilled on the floor around him.

The followings that I got on Wikipedia tends to say I'm not wrong on Fogarty. Those are all "quoted".

Brantford Minor Hockey Association coordinator Bob Coyne told reporters that "he was a star. From the time he put skates on, he was better than everyone else. "We had seen Wayne (Gretzky). Wayne had to work at it. His game was outsmarting everybody else. Fogarty's game was outperforming everybody else. That's like comparing a Volkswagen to a Corvette."[1]

Growing up, Fogarty was a typical 80's Canadian teenager. He listened to Ozzy Osbourne and Black Sabbath, sported a mullet and loved to hang out with his friends. Bryan started drinking at an early age. When he was 15 he was already playing with players who were much older than him because of his exceptional skill level. He would frequent bars and strip clubs with the older players. He was insecure by nature. During his junior hockey days in the OHL he'd take Niagara Falls Thunder coach Bill Laforge aside in the locker room and ask him in a whisper if his teammates hated him. Despite this, Bryan was known for his positive attitude and humble demeanor. During his time with the Kingston Canadians he was known as "Tippy" because, according to teammate Marc Laforge "he was always tipsy

Interesting since that's Gretzky,s town.

 

[Dropkick Alex]

Like how much hype the first superstar got? Probably something like, think player X but stronger, faster, etc.

Yeah that's where I was getting at.

 

[Sens Rule]

It wasn't just Hype...Fogarty WAS a Monster Talent...The Scouts knew this very well...He DID Break Orrs Records & that wasn't done with Smoke n Mirrors...

It was obvious , in hindsight, that Bryan was battling serious mental illness, from a young age...so he wasn't ( in that sense ) a typical teenager by any means...Fogarty lost the battle with his demons...as do many... perhaps most... victims of serious mental illness...one way or another...

It must've been brutal to suffer from such a crippling fear of the spotlight...as he did...Yet to be labeled a cant miss Super-Star & have that limelight always on you...No Wonder He Drank ( etcetera ) So Much...

But my point is that Fogarty broke Orr's records as a 20 year old 2 years after he was drafted. If there was an all-time 18 year old draft Fogarty wouldn't get drafted very high. It was well known when he was drafted he had a ton of issues. If he was in a draft class that blended decades and decades of players he is not going to go high in the draft.

Fogarty was his own worst enemy and I was a Kingston Canadians fan in 85/86 and 86/87 Fogarty was not thought of as anywhere near Orr or Potvin type of talent in his first 2 years of Junior. I even got a hockey card of Fogarty back then!

I wonder if Fogarty had ended up on the 67's with Kilrea as the coach if he would have ended up with a better fate? If someone coulda straightened him out at age 17 he might be alive with a great career in the NHL.

 

[Sens Rule]

I wonder though, how much better would Gretzky have been in his second year of junior. Say he goes out and gets 200 points or more...how much does that increase his hype? Also, how many years of junior does he play?

Dominating the WHA at age 17 surely was more helpful in increasing his hype than getting 225 points in junior would been. He played aginst men, many of whom were NHL caliber and was one of the top 3 or 4 players in the league. By the end of the season and in the playoffs it was apparent Wayne had become the best player in the entire WHA and he was 17.

 

[Melrose Munch]

You rock!

Thanks!

 

[Melrose Munch]

But my point is that Fogarty broke Orr's records as a 20 year old 2 years after he was drafted. If there was an all-time 18 year old draft Fogarty wouldn't get drafted very high. It was well known when he was drafted he had a ton of issues. If he was in a draft class that blended decades and decades of players he is not going to go high in the draft.

Fogarty was his own worst enemy and I was a Kingston Canadians fan in 85/86 and 86/87 Fogarty was not thought of as anywhere near Orr or Potvin type of talent in his first 2 years of Junior. I even got a hockey card of Fogarty back then!

I wonder if Fogarty had ended up on the 67's with Kilrea as the coach if he would have ended up with a better fate? If someone coulda straightened him out at age 17 he might be alive with a great career in the NHL.

Brain Kilrea probably would have brought the hammer down(if you know what I mean)
He never put up with any excuses and Fogarty would have been no exception.

 

[8BostonRocker24]

Based on Pre-Draft Hype

1. Orr
2. Lemieux
3. Lindros
4. Crosby
5. Gretzky
6. Thornton

 

[Chili]

It would have depended on which GM had the pick and what their immediate needs were.

In following the draft just about since it's inception, the most coveted player has always seemed to be that franchise center.

I believe someone like Jean Beliveau would have gone very high. Lemieux, Orr, Lafleur, Lindros, Crosby all would be near the top. I remember scouts being skeptical of Gretzky's size, he would have still gone very high but some of the GM's might have skipped over him for one of these others. I believe that some of them would have picked Bobby Smith, another standout junior player of that time, ahead of Gretzky in a draft.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Ok, I know they have these alltime drafts on hfboards, but say every player ever was a prospect...based solely on their predraft status, and not what they did as a pro, who would go #1?

I would say Mario or Lindros personally, being that both are big, mobile, were very offensively gifted, and had great junior careers, but who do you think?

If it was draft year and i had no prior know how of what these players would do in the future i would take Mario Lemieux 1st overall. I probably wouldnt take gretzky till the 2nd round. Now if there was an all time draft on "careers" with out a doubt its in any order Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, also i wouldnt put or pick How in the top 10. I have Bossy, Brett Hull and a few others ahead of Howe.

all i gotta say about Howe is howmany years do you need to score 801? also if you want to argue about his WHA career then i can argue for players such as Andre Lacroix, Bobby Hull, Marc Tardif, Real Cloutier ect. Players that had great years in pro hockey but when the merger happend they only had a few years left in them and played them out but despite having decent nhl numbers they werent great enough to be HHOF'ers. So if your going to argue for Howe being a top 5 hall of famer you better argue that Tardif or cloutier is a Hockey Hall Of Famer.

 

[BNHL]

In Boston the year Gord Kluzak went first overall the draft was known as "the Brian Bellows Sweepstakes".This was the most hype surrounding a possible Bruins pick I ever remember and the masses were pissed when Sinden traded the promise not to pick him for Brad Palmer and picked Kluzak.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

all i gotta say about Howe is howmany years do you need to score 801? also if you want to argue about his WHA career then i can argue for players such as Andre Lacroix, Bobby Hull, Marc Tardif, Real Cloutier ect. Players that had great years in pro hockey but when the merger happend they only had a few years left in them and played them out but despite having decent nhl numbers they werent great enough to be HHOF'ers. So if your going to argue for Howe being a top 5 hall of famer you better argue that Tardif or cloutier is a Hockey Hall Of Famer.

Nobody thinks that Howe was great because he scored 801 goals. He's great because he was the most dominant forward ever other than Gretzky:

- Howe won 6 Art Ross trophies, more than any player ever except Gretzky
- Howe won 6 Hart trophies, more than any player aside from Gretzky (and as many as Orr and Lemieux combined)
- Howe led the playoffs in scoring 6 times (more than any player ever, tied with Gretzky)
- Howe finished in the top five in scoring twenty years in a row (more than any other player in NHL history)
- Howe was a 21-time all-star (including 12 first-team all-star selections); this is an all-time record
- Howe was an ideal combination of strength, toughness, leadership and defensive play

This doesn't even take his WHA accomplishments into account, but that's fine, because Howe is a top four player without them.

Howe is one of the "big four" because he was more dominant than any player aside from Gretzky and Orr.