Who will have the better career? Moritz Seider vs Adam Fox?

[the paisanos guy]

I'll take the guy who's already a top D in the league, but this poll's not really fair to Seider until he has a chance to prove himself in the NHL.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

So against Pittsburgh, Washington, NYI and Boston he did this.

30-3-14-17 plus 2

That's not nearly as impressive. Still good, but not domination.

I'm not trying to diminish Fox who is a terrific defenseman, but he really feasted on shit teams. I think when things get back to normal we'll see Fox still be a top 10 or top 15 defenseman in the league and be amongst the top 10 in defense scoring, but with more games against top teams his scoring average might take a dip.

That's true of pretty much every offensive player.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I’m guessing you are going to bring out some analytical stats to show the top 3 defensively?

As I have already outlined he really beat up on 3 weak teams, did really well against 2 meh defensive teams and had a 161-2-3 minus 6 line against Boston and NYI.

part of the Norris no imagination is a COVID year thing and he didn’ t have a single game outside of his time zone.

Yes he had a “ great “ season but there are some special reasons for that and in normal years he will be a top 10- 15 Dman.

Also yes I’m “dumb” for taking Seider but I also pointed out the reasons why.

If you only want to look on the surface and not deal with everything that’s fine but it’s not a good look.

You got 1 thing right.

 

[izlez]

This idea that you are forbidden from believing anyone under the age of 20 has the chance to be better than Adam Fox is really dumb

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Almost any Ranger player will always win these polls, you could throw Fox vs Q Hughes and Makar... heck you could probably put him against Hedman and the Ranger bias will overcome

 

[Pavels Dog]

Seider hasn’t proven anything. You’d be dumb to take Seider going forward

He's literally been a fantastic player in DEL, AHL, SHL, WJC and WHC. You'd be hard pressed to find a more proven 20 year old, with more of a track record of performance. He actually has more games at a pro level than Fox, despite being 3 years younger. He also has more experience in a leadership role, more experience in playoff do-or-die type games, has been better at every international level.

Yes, he hasn't played in the NHL. Neither had Fox at the same age. Who knows if Seider will hit the ground running or not. Maybe he struggles for a year or two, but betting against him at this point; that's what's dumb.

 

[Albatros]

Fox is good, but also 23 years old already. Seider has what it takes to reach a similar level in three years.

 

[bigdog16]

Most of his points were against Philly, Jersey and Boston; aka the 3 worst defensive teams in the league.

edit: Buffalo lol. Not Boston.

Yes because Chicago Detroit and Columbus is any better of a bottom 3

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yes because Chicago Detroit and Columbus is any better of a bottom 3

Detroit actually wasn’t even bottom 10 in goals against. Not a good team, but more low scoring than leaky defensively.

 

[DFF]

Adam Fox and it’s not even close

 

[DFF]

Fox is good, but also 23 years old already. Seider has what it takes to reach a similar level in three years.

Lol….top 3 dman in the league at 23.

there is very few that can reach that level at any age

I’d take my chance on Fox and it’s a safe bet

 

[rangersfansince08]

Fox is the easy answer with points but the OP is talking career and Seider just won the top Dman at the WC and looks like a defensive monster already.

Nothing against Fox but Seider is my choice here and it’s not based on hype but performance so far and age.

Agreed. Being the top dman at the WC means more than being nominated for being the best defenseman in the NHL.

 

[rangersfansince08]

This idea that you are forbidden from believing anyone under the age of 20 has the chance to be better than Adam Fox is really dumb

The idea that you would gamble on that is even dumber.

 

[rangersfansince08]

Almost any Ranger player will always win these polls, you could throw Fox vs Q Hughes and Makar... heck you could probably put him against Hedman and the Ranger bias will overcome

Why is Quinn Hughes in this? That guy is a pylon.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

No offense, but the way Adam Fox controls the game is second to Panarin on the team. He was arguably the reason the Rangers almost got into the playoffs.
Adam Fox will wear an A at one point no doubt so I don’t understand the whole leadership argument as well.

People still don’t understand that he’s not just a point machine, he is one of the best defensemen at playing defense in the game ALREADY. In his second season in the NHL.

Lot of ifs ands or buts with Moritz. People like the idea of their prospect and the hope around them reaching their potential, I get it. But it’s not reality in this case. Not saying Moritz can’t become like this, but Adam Fox IS this.

Fox might even be the captain. It was a weird argument all around to bring that up.

 

[Albatros]

Lol….top 3 dman in the league at 23.

there is very few that can reach that level at any age

I’d take my chance on Fox and it’s a safe bet

PK Subban was the most recent 23-year-old Norris winner I believe. There are more than 3 defensemen in the league that I'd take over Fox for what it's worth.

 

[rangersfansince08]

PK Subban was the most recent 23-year-old Norris winner I believe. There are more than 3 defensemen in the league that I'd take over Fox for what it's worth.

They are not anything alike. Subban never had Fox's hockey IQ and it was always clear he wouldn't age well.

 

[DFF]

PK Subban was the most recent 23-year-old Norris winner I believe. There are more than 3 defensemen in the league that I'd take over Fox for what it's worth.

Well, it’s debatable but you can’t deny the fact that he is voted the top 3 this year.

point is you cannot assume a prospect will be that good. Dahlin was generational to many and he struggled

 

[DFF]

They are not anything alike. Subban never had Fox's hockey IQ and it was always clear he wouldn't age well.

It’s funny that people question Fox but not a prospect that has not played in the NHL

 

[Albatros]

Well, it’s debatable but you can’t deny the fact that he is voted the top 3 this year.

point is you cannot assume a prospect will be that good. Dahlin was generational to many and he struggled

Sure, and all credit for that. Dahlin just turned 21, he could take big steps in the right direction the next few years as well. Although playing for a tanking team like Buffalo or Detroit is always going to be more tricky in this regard.

 

[rangersfansince08]

It’s funny that people question Fox but not a prospect that has not played in the NHL

Seider might end up being better than Fox but you would have to be dumb to take that gamble. And even if he can end up being better than Fox how much better do you think he will be than Fox that its worth taking that gamble? Seider was never considered to be generational and even Dahlin who has come the closest to being labeled generational hasn't put it all together.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

So against Pittsburgh, Washington, NYI and Boston he did this.

30-3-14-17 plus 2

That's not nearly as impressive. Still good, but not domination.

I'm not trying to diminish Fox who is a terrific defenseman, but he really feasted on shit teams. I think when things get back to normal we'll see Fox still be a top 10 or top 15 defenseman in the league and be amongst the top 10 in defense scoring, but with more games against top teams his scoring average might take a dip.

The things you discuss show you fundamentally misunderstand the way Fox plays hockey. Many people do because they don't watch enough, and look at things like a boxscore, height, weight, points, goals, assists. They think that gives them a complete idea of how someone plays the game.

Fox is not comparable to Quinn Hughes, Karlsson, Barrie, or his teammate DeAngelo. His value is not based on how many points he collects at the end of the season, or sacrificing the defensive responsibilities of a defenseman to be the main offensive creator on the team.

Fox is comparable to Hedman, Jones, Josi, Makar. He controls the game in all parts of the game. His value comes from his overall impact during a shift. We judge that in stats like xG%, WAR. Fox's game is based on his team having better results when he's on the ice than the other team because he's able to control the game when he's on the ice in many areas of the game.

You can point to his point totals in certain games. Thats essentially irrelevant to Fox's contribution. We were worse against teams like Boston and NYI because they are very good teams, and we weren't as good. The problem was not Fox. Fox's impact against those teams was still pretty good. I couldn't care less about his point totals in those games because the points will come based on Fox being an elite player, it's not the points make Fox an elite player. The players whose point totals in those games are more problematic are some of the top forwards, especially the ones whose contributions are mostly based on their point totals.

If Fox has 45 points next season, I don't think Rangers fans will care. What will matter more is his overall impact. It's amazing that there are still people who don't understand this, and cite dumb things like his point totals against certain teams. If you watch Fox play or even look at his advanced stats, he's elite in every part of the game. Point totals are such a boring and dumb argument for/against Fox.

 

[izlez]

The idea that you would gamble on that is even dumber.

We're not gambling. There are no stakes. We're not GM's deciding if we're making a trade. Having played in the NHL, Fox is the safer bet. But, you are still allowed to evaluate Seider's play and make your own personal projection of what he will become.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I’m guessing you are going to bring out some analytical stats to show the top 3 defensively?

As I have already outlined he really beat up on 3 weak teams, did really well against 2 meh defensive teams and had a 161-2-3 minus 6 line against Boston and NYI.

part of the Norris no imagination is a COVID year thing and he didn’ t have a single game outside of his time zone.

Yes he had a “ great “ season but there are some special reasons for that and in normal years he will be a top 10- 15 Dman.

Also yes I’m “dumb” for taking Seider but I also pointed out the reasons why.

If you only want to look on the surface and not deal with everything that’s fine but it’s not a good look.

You are essentially saying Seider is much taller than Fox, so you think he will be better defensively and because of that you’d rather build around him.

Has there not been a long line of players who were slightly undersized that were still able to be elite in all parts of the game? Detroit fans would know about that with players like Datsyuk, Yzerman, Lidstrom. How can we ignore results? Fox gets better results than other players. Point totals aren’t even relevant.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I’m really excited to watch Seider next season, but I’ll go with Fox. He was so good this year.