Who was considered the best player in the 90's?

Say Hey Kid

The best all around player ever
Dec 10, 2007
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Yeah, that would kinda be like calling someone the best player in the world over the last 3 years despite missing 113 of 212 games. Who could possibly consider such a thing I wonder? :sarcasm: Oh and just for the record it was 377 games, not 318.
Agreed. I dared point this out and an entire forum all disagreed and roasted me and argued that PPG is the only thing that matters when comparing players who miss many games due to injury to those who don't. :laugh:
 
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Hardyvan123

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I had Bure on my list and I definitly think Lidström and Selänne was better :laugh:

Lidström broke out (to me at least) in '95 and considering people having Messier their despite the fact that he was putrid after '96 Im sure Lidström should get some love too. But then again there might be someone more deserving.

It's also very hard to compare Dmen with forwards and it makes a huge difference what reference one uses for the 90's decade.

Using 90-99 Mario is 12th in points (my bad i accidentally used 89-99 as a decade earlier on) and Jagr is 7th.

Use 91-00 as the decade , as I normally do, then Mario is 25th and Jagr is 1st.

How does Mario makes up for being 12th in points for his best case scenario decade to being a lock as the best player of the decade?

Here are the point leaders for the 90-99 decade that most people here seem to be using.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points
 

PensBandwagonerNo272*

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Oscar Acosta

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Can't believe how much Eric Lindros is being undersold in this thread. For a large time in the 90s he was without a doubt the best player in the world. He didn't start any decline until the 2000s, which I think people are judging him on.

Points per game in the 90s:
1. Lemieux
2. Gretzky
3. Lindros

Goals per game:
1. Lemieux
2. Hull
3. Selanne
4. Lindros (who didn't even get the benefit of the early 90s goal fest)

Yet he's not even cracking people's lists. Absurd.
 

Hardyvan123

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Can't believe how much Eric Lindros is being undersold in this thread. For a large time in the 90s he was without a doubt the best player in the world. He didn't start any decline until the 2000s, which I think people are judging him on.

Points per game in the 90s:
1. Lemieux
2. Gretzky
3. Lindros

Goals per game:
1. Lemieux
2. Hull
3. Selanne
4. Lindros (who didn't even get the benefit of the early 90s goal fest)

Yet he's not even cracking people's lists. Absurd.

Well people seem to focus on the video game stats and tend to downplay 2 way play and terms of total impact, although the reputation for some is treated differently as well, ie. Mosse and Lindros.
 

billybudd

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Feb 1, 2012
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Here's a really rough sketch of a top 10 of the 90s. I'm sure I forgot some guys.

1. Lemieux
2. Hasek
3. Roy
4. Bourque
5. Chelios
6. Messier
7. Jagr
8. Hull
9. Yzerman
10. Gretzky

HM: Oates, Leetch

I don't really agree with this ordering, but I'm glad Leetch at least gets a shoutout. The guy has become very underrated since his retirement.
 

Epsilon

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Oct 26, 2002
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Can't believe how much Eric Lindros is being undersold in this thread. For a large time in the 90s he was without a doubt the best player in the world. He didn't start any decline until the 2000s, which I think people are judging him on.

Points per game in the 90s:
1. Lemieux
2. Gretzky
3. Lindros

Goals per game:
1. Lemieux
2. Hull
3. Selanne
4. Lindros (who didn't even get the benefit of the early 90s goal fest)

Yet he's not even cracking people's lists. Absurd.

There was no point in the 1990s where Lindros was "without a doubt the best player in the world".
 

Ohashi_Jouzu*

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There was no point in the 1990s where Lindros was "without a doubt the best player in the world".

There was a stretch, however, when pretty much every team probably would have been willing to give up their best player to get him. That much should be evident from what it took to get him out of Quebec, and his value only went from producing 1.23 PPG as a rookie, to 1.49 the year after that, and then becoming a Hart/Lindsay winner and 1st team all-star in just his 3rd season.

Only Crosby and Lemieux have won the Lindsay at a younger age. That's the kind of player we're talking about here.
 

Dissonance

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There was no point in the 1990s where Lindros was "without a doubt the best player in the world".

It seemed pretty clear-cut during the lockout season.

And more broadly, between 1994 and the Finals with Detroit in '97 there was a very good case that Lindros was the best player in the world. Lemieux was a better scorer, but he didn't dominate physically and defensively the way Lindros did.

The shine started coming off after Detroit shut the Flyers down in the Finals and then came the Olympics debacle in '98 and a slew of injuries, but there was certainly a period where Lindros was the most terrifying player to play against in the league.
 

quoipourquoi

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It seemed pretty clear-cut during the lockout season.

As if Jaromir Jagr, Paul Coffey, and Dominik Hasek weren't also acceptable answers? It's like the further we get away from award winners of the past, the more entrenched it becomes in people's minds that there was never a debate to begin with.
 
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Plural

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all the usual suspects have been listed, but let's not forget

a healthy peter forsberg
a healthy eric lindros

Well, healthy Mario Lemieux and Healthy Gretzky would occupy 5 slots from top-10 list each. So this game is moot.
 

Plural

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As if Jaromir Jagr, Paul Coffey, and Dominik Hasek weren't also acceptable answers? It's like the further we get away from award winners of the past, the more entrenched it becomes in people's minds that there was never a debate to begin with.

Well, Ovechkin is going to have a huge step in his ranking after few years. :laugh:
 

Richard

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The common thing is to make 1999 the end of the millennium when it was actually the end of 2000 but even so 377 (when guys like Wayne and Steve are almost doubling it) in the decade of 90-99 still only get Mario to 6th in points for "that decade" hard case for the best player in the decade of the 90's with that metric.

Mario doesn't have two ways skills to supplement his offense stats, his offense is basically it.

Did you even watch Mario play? Mario was a tremendous two-way player, most notably in the post-season. He was dominant in the regular season too when his back wasn't acting up.

Doesn't Mario have the record of shorthanded goals in a season?
 

Rhiessan71

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The common thing is to make 1999 the end of the millennium when it was actually the end of 2000 but even so 377 (when guys like Wayne and Steve are almost doubling it) in the decade of 90-99 still only get Mario to 6th in points for "that decade" hard case for the best player in the decade of the 90's with that metric.

Mario doesn't have two ways skills to supplement his offense stats, his offense is basically it.

Good answer...for the 377 games part.
Did you miss the point of the rest of the post? ;)


On another note, Lindros IS being greatly underrated here.


It's also very hard to compare Dmen with forwards and it makes a huge difference what reference one uses for the 90's decade.

Is it really?
Does anyone have a problem ranking Bourque with forwards as one of the top players in the 90's?
Does anyone really have a problem ranking Lidstrom with forwards as one of the top players in the 2000's?

No, they don't and that should be your answer right there about whether Lidstrom is being underrated or deserves mention as one of the best players of the 90's.

It is NOT underrating Lidstrom by not including him as one of the top players of the 90's, that would be grossly overrating him period!
 
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dr robbie

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Surprised there's so much debate on this one. The way I recall it, it was Lemieux pretty handedly. Gretz was on his decline and Jagr was playing second fiddle on the Pens team. Hasek, Brodeur, and Roy were trying to best each other, but I don't think any of them were dominant enough over the decade to overthrow Mario.

Some other players that could have been in the argument could include Messier, Kariya, Forsberg, Lindros, Hull, Bourque, and Yzerman, but I don't think any of them were ever considered the best at any point during this 10 year stretch. Lemieux was pretty much "the guy" during the 90s.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Surprised there's so much debate on this one. The way I recall it, it was Lemieux pretty handedly. Gretz was on his decline and Jagr was playing second fiddle on the Pens team. Hasek, Brodeur, and Roy were trying to best each other, but I don't think any of them were dominant enough over the decade to overthrow Mario.

Some other players that could have been in the argument could include Messier, Kariya, Forsberg, Lindros, Hull, Bourque, and Yzerman, but I don't think any of them were ever considered the best at any point during this 10 year stretch. Lemieux was pretty much "the guy" during the 90s.

Agree. 2nd place could be debatable, but really, anyone who followed hockey in the 1990s should remember that Lemieux towered above everyone else.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
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1. Mario
2. Hasek
3. Roy
4. Jagr
5. Bourque
6. Messier
7. Gretzky
8. Hull
9. Yzerman
10. Leetch
11. Sakic
12. Chelios
13. S Stevens
14. Oates
15. Lindros
 

Say Hey Kid

The best all around player ever
Dec 10, 2007
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Agree. 2nd place could be debatable, but really, anyone who followed hockey in the 1990s should remember that Lemieux towered above everyone else.
Agreed. Also, if he was as weak defensively as some people think, it would have been almost impossible to win a Cup. Your #1 Center must be able to play some D and win some faceoffs. Toews is no offensive juggernaut, but he can do those things.
 

Big Phil

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Alright, I thought this whole idea of what years define a decade was rather universal. But I am guessing almost everyone is using the same method I am of calling the 1990s the years between 1989-'90 to 1998-'99. And so on and so forth. Just like the 1980s begins in 1979-'80. So that's pretty much the method here.

That being said the point leaders from this decade look like this:

Gretzky - 1020
Oates - 927
Yzerman - 918
.........
..........
.......
........
14th Lemieux - 779

Alright, that is quite the gap but in this instance you have to look at the whole picture as well. PPG is a very small part of this, because I prefer actual games played, but in this case Mario has 2.07 and Gretzky - who is second - has 1.43.

Throw in the two Cups for Mario and the all-time great playoff runs in back to back years. The 4 Art Ross trophies, the two Harts, the 46 game point streak and I can't imagine a case that anyone else in this decade. You have to look at peak value here too, and when Mario was healthy he was not only the best player in the game, he was an Art Ross winner each time. That's a lot of mustard right there to make up for. Pierre Turgeon was 6th in points during this time, is he the 6th best player in this decade? I've never even heard his name mentioned once.

To me, Mario had enough full seasons to more than make up for the time he missed. And I can't see anyone replacing him at #1 here, not even Hasek or Roy who either got a late start in this decade (Hasek) or had some off years (Roy).
 

Hardyvan123

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As if Jaromir Jagr, Paul Coffey, and Dominik Hasek weren't also acceptable answers? It's like the further we get away from award winners of the past, the more entrenched it becomes in people's minds that there was never a debate to begin with.

I can see the case for Jagr and Hasek, not sure if they match Eric's impact though.

Coffey for best player in the world status?

Not a chance.

Just for reference in the 94-95 yearbook, so going into the 94-95 season Coffey is nowhere to be found in the Hockey news list of the top 40 players in the NHL, despite a pretty good season offensively and 7 other Dmen make that list.
 

Rhiessan71

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I agree, the 90‘s should begin with the 89/90 season.
The Isles did not win a Cup in the 70‘s after all, they won it in 1980.
Bill Ranford won the first Conn Smythe of the 90‘s as far as I‘m concerned.
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
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Did you even watch Mario play? Mario was a tremendous two-way player, most notably in the post-season. He was dominant in the regular season too when his back wasn't acting up.

Doesn't Mario have the record of shorthanded goals in a season?

Dominant 2 way player to describe Mario?:shakehead

Offensively yes he was dominant but he only played in the best case scenario 90-99 in 377 games compared to Wayne's 713 or Steve's 743.

Mario simply can't be said to have the best decade in the 90's playing in

59
26
64
60
22
0
70
76
0
0 games in the decade.

Even as great as he was offensively he still was only 14th in scoring points for the decade and he isn't a dominant 2 way player like Feds was for the decade.

Heck Mario's 2 way game isn't even nearly as good as Sid's and we see how some people treated him in the "first 8 seasons thread."

But if you really think that a player who played in only 377 games in the decade and had 13 more players score more points than him is really the best player of the 90's feel free to make an argument.

There simply isn't one that stands up very well IMO.
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
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On another note, Lindros IS being greatly underrated here.

fully agree here

Is it really?
Does anyone have a problem ranking Bourque with forwards as one of the top players in the 90's?
Does anyone really have a problem ranking Lidstrom with forwards as one of the top players in the 2000's?

No, they don't and that should be your answer right there about whether Lidstrom is being underrated or deserves mention as one of the best players of the 90's.

It is NOT underrating Lidstrom by not including him as one of the top players of the 90's, that would be grossly overrating him period!

there were 2 parts to my response to Lidstrom and the 2nd one is also very important, ie the reference for the decade, if one uses your reference of 90-99 then sure Lidstrom has no place there, although there is an argument that he was a top 10 Dman easily for your reference in the 90's decade

With only 8 seasons he was still the 12th best offensive Dman in the decade and in the playoffs he was 5th.

If the original poster uses the more correct reference for the decade, ie 91-00 it changes to something like this

8th in points in the regular season and 3rd in the playoffs.

Given his stellar defensive play he has a strong case for top 5 Dman for the decade, regardless of which time frame one uses and a really good case for top 3 as well.
 

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