Big Phil
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2003
- 31,703
- 4,145
Well he was always the "Next One" and we assumed he would pick up that mantle, but he didn't.
I think with Fedorov the competition is just too tough and he was a guy who coasted too often in the regular season. Plus, as I said with Lindros, who do you take off this list from 1989-'99?
Lemieux, Hasek, Roy, Bourque, Jagr, Gretzky, Messier, Yzerman and then a string of guys like Sakic, Oates, Chelios, even Leetch, among others.
Dissonance
Registered User
If you took the five-year stretch from 1993-94 to 1997-98 (say) there'd be no question in my mind that Fedorov would be in the top 10.
It gets a bit harder when you stretch it out over the full decade, though I could see the case.
It gets a bit harder when you stretch it out over the full decade, though I could see the case.
Sens Rule
Registered User
- Sep 22, 2005
- 21,251
- 74
2 Cups and 2 Conn Smythe trophies kind of are a massive argument in Mario's favour. He might have missed a lot of time in the 1990's... but he was so utterly dominant that it just doesn't matter.
Sentinel
Registered User
No love for Fedorov and his 93-94 season and four consecutive 20 pt playoffs? No love for Bure?
And I don't think Lemieux was "significantly better" than Hasek.
And I don't think Lemieux was "significantly better" than Hasek.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Bure only led the league in goals once in the 90s. (I'm including 1999-00 as part of the next decade).
Fedorov... I guess if I included Oates as an HM, I probably should have included Fedorov too. Can't see him beating out Hull, Yzerman, or Gretzky for #10 though.
Edit: I would take Fedorov over Forsberg for the 90s alone.
Say Hey Kid
Under the Sign of the Black Mark
Forward's regular season total points should be an extremely small part of the big picture and doesn't include the playoffs or dmen and goalies so I'm not trying to make some big profound point at all, but just for the record during this period Gretzky and Yzerman were 1st and 2nd, Sakic and Lemieux were 5th and 6th, Messier was 9th, and Jagr was 12th in regular season total points among forwards.
I'm surprised Messier is so high on most of the lists. I remember him bieng dominant in the 80's and early 90's, but not so good in the mid to late 90's. Remember his stint with the Canucks? 
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I'm surprised Messier is so high on most of the lists. I remember him bieng dominant in the 80's and early 90's, but not so good in the mid to late 90's. Remember his stint with the Canucks?
He was a dominant player for 8 of the 10 years of the decade, winning 2 Hart Trophies, finishing 2nd to Mario Lemieux for a 3rd, and having 2 Smythe-worthy playoffs. And his non-so-good 1997-98 and 1998-99 seasons were still better than not playing at all.
Well for starters I used 91-00 as the 0 in any decade is the 10th year but maybe that's where the difference is for a lot of these guys, one has to separate the 80's from the 90's and while Feds did have some less than stellar regular season play, largely in part to his battles with Scotty his combination of excellent regular season and playoff play and 2 way play in the decade is unmatched IMO.
Mario does have a better case if it's 89-99 but still he only played in 453 games and I would take both Yzerman and Wayne over him for that time period without even looking at the others as well.
from 01-00 feds was 3rd in playoff points with 134, 1 and 2 points behind Jagr and Mario but there is no doubt that his two play trumps the decade as best overall playoff performer is there
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points
In the regular season Feds is 18th in scoring and the other 3 guys ahead of him with some decent 2 way games are Francis, who gets under rated I agree and Sakic and Modano both who were better defensively at the end of the decade than at the beginning and neither of them reached feds consistency or excellence in the defensive game IMO.
Yzerman is probably my pick for 2nd best center of that decade.
Steve had more offensive punch in the decade (regular season)but feds had more defensive responsibility and a better 2 way or defensive role and in the playoffs for the decade he trumps Steve in both departments again.
Mario is a distant 25th in scoring if we use the 91-00 as the decade
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points
6th if one uses the 90-99 as the decade but then other offensive guys ahve a huge leg up on him as well
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points
Last edited:
livewell68
Registered User
- Jul 20, 2007
- 8,680
- 52
I have no problem if you are talking peak but where are all the "you can't count when you aren't playing crowd" that slams Sid if we are talking about the best player over the whole decade?
From 91-00 Mario only plays in 318 games and while leading the Pens and league in playoff scoring over that time feds is still only 2 points behind playing a much better 2 way game as well.
Like I said in my other post if one wants to change the decade to 89-99 Mario is still only 6th in points and I would take Wayne and Steve easily over his game for that time period.
Heck using that time period hull has over 100 goals more (553 to Yzerman's 428) than any other player in the NHL which has to be near some kind of record in terms of a decade of dominance right?
HHOF Monitor" PTS is an interesting metric but it doesn't account for defensive play.
I respect the guy who set up the metric but it's more indicative of offensive dominance than it is off overall play.
Jagr is quite clearly the best offensive guy of that decade though.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
HHOF monitor points also treats all All-Star Teams as the same, which is obviously unfair to centers when comparing them to wingers.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
All three I recall as being other worldly, Mario a hockey god when healthy, Hasek with unparallelled dominance in net for a few seasons, and Jagr a demi-god on everyone's top-3 list for years on end.
Gretzky, however, only led the league SIX (6) times in assists in the 1990s, multiple Art Ross trophies, Lady Byngs and eight all-star games.
Whomever is your fifth horse, these four are in the race going down to the wire.
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
Yeah, that would kinda be like calling someone the best player in the world over the last 3 years despite missing 113 of 212 games.
Who could possibly consider such a thing I wonder?
Oh and just for the record it was 377 games, not 318.
Plural
Registered User
- Mar 10, 2011
- 33,708
- 4,858
Yeah, that would kinda be like calling someone the best player in the world over the last 3 years despite missing 113 of 212 games.
Who could possibly consider such a thing I wonder?
Oh and just for the record it was 377 games, not 318.
Good call!
But seriously, is there any doubt that Lemieux was not the best player of the decade? Even with so little games played, he was automatic Hart/Art winner when healthy. That is a clear cut level above Crosby. Or anyone else not named Gretzky for that matter.
sr edler
gold is not reality
- Mar 20, 2010
- 11,885
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Messier on the Rangers wasn't a better or more Hart worthy player than teammate Brian Leetch. That's my opinion. He was still a dominant kind of player though.
And I'm not a particular fan of Selänne but he had at least three great seasons in 92–93, 96–97 and 98–99, so he's up there somewhere.
Bure, as much as I love the guy, disappeared for three seasons with injuries so he's not really there. He only had say two and a half great seasons in the 90s.
He was a terrible leader in Vancouver.
And I'm not a particular fan of Selänne but he had at least three great seasons in 92–93, 96–97 and 98–99, so he's up there somewhere.
Bure, as much as I love the guy, disappeared for three seasons with injuries so he's not really there. He only had say two and a half great seasons in the 90s.
He was a terrible leader in Vancouver.
pnep
Registered User
Sentinel
Registered User
Oh, and here is my list:
Mario Lemieux
Dominik Hasek
Jaromir Jagr
Ray Bourque
Steve Yzerman
Sergey Fedorov
Patrick Roy
Brett Hull
Wayne Gretzky
Joe Sakic
Whatever success Messier had in the beginning of the decade is totally off-set by his end of the decade disgrace IMO.
Mario Lemieux
Dominik Hasek
Jaromir Jagr
Ray Bourque
Steve Yzerman
Sergey Fedorov
Patrick Roy
Brett Hull
Wayne Gretzky
Joe Sakic
Whatever success Messier had in the beginning of the decade is totally off-set by his end of the decade disgrace IMO.
Plural
Registered User
- Mar 10, 2011
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Cant for the life of me understand how I forgot Selänne and Lidström
Was Lidstrom really a superstar in the 90's? I always felt that he really got great after 96/97. Granted, two years of excellent elite play and I know he was underrated in beginning of his career. I am just not sure Lidstrom exploded early enough to make my top-10. Selanne is a borderline and he had three years of excellent elite play and few more great/elite play.
From 97-11 Lidstrom is easily the best player on planet tough. No contest.
Hobnobs
Pinko
- Nov 29, 2011
- 8,903
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I had Bure on my list and I definitly think Lidström and Selänne was better
Lidström broke out (to me at least) in '95 and considering people having Messier their despite the fact that he was putrid after '96 Im sure Lidström should get some love too. But then again there might be someone more deserving.
Yeah, that would kinda be like calling someone the best player in the world over the last 3 years despite missing 113 of 212 games.
Who could possibly consider such a thing I wonder?
Oh and just for the record it was 377 games, not 318.
The common thing is to make 1999 the end of the millennium when it was actually the end of 2000 but even so 377 (when guys like Wayne and Steve are almost doubling it) in the decade of 90-99 still only get Mario to 6th in points for "that decade" hard case for the best player in the decade of the 90's with that metric.
Mario doesn't have two ways skills to supplement his offense stats, his offense is basically it.
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