Who should win the Calder?
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Both of them are great players. I think AO has been better but I wouldn't say he's been robbed.Namso said:
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Epsilon
#basta
benji said:
I think I'd have to go with Lundqvist because those stats would be totally unbelievable under the current scoring conditions, and that would also probably put the Rangers in the playoffs. In fact if Lundqvist finished with those numbers I'd say he'd be a contender for both the Vezina and the Hart trophies.
hard to pick between Ovechkin and Crosby, but i would go slightly in favor of Ovechkin because he has crappier linemates, way more goals and a better plus minus.
The point is, that it all comes down to the question "Is it, who SHOULD win?" or "Who WILL win?"
If it is the first one you could find arguments for Crosby, Ovechkin, Phaneuf and a hand full of others.
But if it is "who WILL win" it is plain and simple Crosby. Why? Cause we are talking about politics here. Canada is desperate for its next superstar player. They always had one or two who stood above all others. Howe, Orr, Gretzky/Lemieux and some others led the group in their respective times. But there is none of that right now. There are great players like Thornton or Iginla, but they are not head and shoulders above all others. So the NHL is desperate for "the next one". Karia and Lindros didn't pan out as hoped, so all hopes are on Crosby right now. He is supposed to become hockey embassador within north america and the league will support him. Believe me, he will win unless someone else (and this would 99,9% be Ovechkin) is really that clearly better that they couldn't even argue. One may call it unfair but IMO thats the situation as it is.
And also I think he is absolutely deserving so far. Its more or less a wash between AO and SC. The first is a scorer, the latter a playmaker. So the one sais that AO has more goals, the other one sais that Syds assists clinch the games. Same goes for the supporting cast. The one sais, Syd can easily pass cause the others convert. The other one sais it is much harder to earn his playing time against stronger players. Ovechkin is by far the MVP in WAS, Crosby is "only" MVP in PIT, not "by far". Sure! But if you have two car races: One of a ferrari against a truck and the second of ferrari against Porsche, the Ferrari will win both. But he will beat the truck by a mile, the Porsche by a few meters. Is it slower in the Porsche-race?! No it is not! So this argument sais nothing.
They are both stellar so far and would both be deserving Calder, but I am 99.9% sure it will be Syd the Kid who does!
If it is the first one you could find arguments for Crosby, Ovechkin, Phaneuf and a hand full of others.
But if it is "who WILL win" it is plain and simple Crosby. Why? Cause we are talking about politics here. Canada is desperate for its next superstar player. They always had one or two who stood above all others. Howe, Orr, Gretzky/Lemieux and some others led the group in their respective times. But there is none of that right now. There are great players like Thornton or Iginla, but they are not head and shoulders above all others. So the NHL is desperate for "the next one". Karia and Lindros didn't pan out as hoped, so all hopes are on Crosby right now. He is supposed to become hockey embassador within north america and the league will support him. Believe me, he will win unless someone else (and this would 99,9% be Ovechkin) is really that clearly better that they couldn't even argue. One may call it unfair but IMO thats the situation as it is.
And also I think he is absolutely deserving so far. Its more or less a wash between AO and SC. The first is a scorer, the latter a playmaker. So the one sais that AO has more goals, the other one sais that Syds assists clinch the games. Same goes for the supporting cast. The one sais, Syd can easily pass cause the others convert. The other one sais it is much harder to earn his playing time against stronger players. Ovechkin is by far the MVP in WAS, Crosby is "only" MVP in PIT, not "by far". Sure! But if you have two car races: One of a ferrari against a truck and the second of ferrari against Porsche, the Ferrari will win both. But he will beat the truck by a mile, the Porsche by a few meters. Is it slower in the Porsche-race?! No it is not! So this argument sais nothing.
They are both stellar so far and would both be deserving Calder, but I am 99.9% sure it will be Syd the Kid who does!
Jaded-Fan
Registered User
RallyKiller said:
Technically you are right. But never doubt Crosby being so young being a facor in the back of voter's minds. It is impressive and could influence how those who vote for such things percieve the kid.
Jaded-Fan said:
Maybe. But the same could have been said about the Heatley/Kovalchuk calder race.
Bobby Orr's Knees
Registered User
You are right. But the fact that Crosby is "the chosen one" will play a far greater role. He was practically guaranteed the Calder before he ever stepped on the NHL ice.Jaded-Fan said:
Nope,if he was playing subpar now he would'nt get a sniff of the calder.He's going to have a great shot at it because he is playing great.Bobby Orr's Knees said:
Eric Lindros going into his year was the expert and hype train shoo-in for the calder but he did'nt win it.......................Selanne did and he should have,he clearly had the best year.But so far nothing like that scenario has emerged,Ovechkin at best has been a little better then Crosby and even that is debateable,i'm not even gonna mention Phaneuf in depth here or a few other guys.Right now it's an open horse race.If Ovechkin clearly outplays him(and others) which at present time he has'nt......................he'll win it.
Going to catch Crosby on TSN this evening in the MTL-PIT game.. that'll help me decide on the Crosby/Ovechkin argument.. so far, having seen NEITHER of them play a full 60, I'd take Ovechkin. Not to sound biased, but he's shown me something this year.. determination, drive, difference-maker. Whatever you want to call it... something you don't usually see out of euros. In fact, I'd go so far as to say i've never seen it out of a euro! I guess when you're a one-man-show though you have to do that... will be interesting to see Crosby play though.
For the record, right now there's an incredible crop of rookies.. Crosby, Ovechkin, Phaneuf, Suter, Seabrook, Lundqvist, Labarbera, Ward, Steen, Vorobiev... wow talk about fresh talent for this league. (Not to mention some stellar 2nd & 3rd year players... future certainly looks bright!)
For the record, right now there's an incredible crop of rookies.. Crosby, Ovechkin, Phaneuf, Suter, Seabrook, Lundqvist, Labarbera, Ward, Steen, Vorobiev... wow talk about fresh talent for this league. (Not to mention some stellar 2nd & 3rd year players... future certainly looks bright!)
Ok whoever picks Ovechkin as a clearcut winner is either a biased idiot or an idiot plain and simple. I'm watching pittsburgh now and there's no way in hell Ovechkin could have outplayed Crosby to the point where he should be picked the "winner". I'm sorry but Crosby's been nothing short of brilliant so far.
Alexander Ovechkin by a mile if he continues more or less the pace he's at.
He's playing for WASHINGTON people.... the next top players in there are Jeff Friesen and Andrew Cassels.... Crosby plays with Lemieux, Palffy, Recchi, LeClair, Gonchar, Malone... Ovechkin has continued to be dominate in every game. He is the main reason Caps have any wins. His value to his team is enormous.
He's playing for WASHINGTON people.... the next top players in there are Jeff Friesen and Andrew Cassels.... Crosby plays with Lemieux, Palffy, Recchi, LeClair, Gonchar, Malone... Ovechkin has continued to be dominate in every game. He is the main reason Caps have any wins. His value to his team is enormous.
What do you mean by "No way in hell Ovechkin could have outplayed Crosby to the point where he should be picked the "winner"? Is there a handicap that we are not aware of? To what point should Ovechking be outplaying Crosby? I thought it was simply the matter of who's playing better.Leachmeister2000 said:
Alexander OVechkin, and it's not even close. This russian dynamo is worth the price of admission even more so than Crosby. Most of his goals have been of the highlight reel nature. AS for Crosby, I have highlights of all the penguin games and i could count only 3 assists that were really magnificent. Also, his goals thus far have been mere tap ins or rebounds, nothing too spectacular.
Epsilon
#basta
Lundqvist with a 23/25 save/shot performance in a 5-2 victory over the Stanley Cup champions. This coming one night after he stopped 38 out of 41 and then made 4 straight saves in the shootout for a victory. TSN are insane not to have him among the top 3 rookies right now. He's up there with Alfredsson, Staal, Jagr and Forsberg for league MVP in my opinion.
Well, Lundqvist gave up a goal he should have had in each of the last two games. He has played average in half of the last two games. I am not sure what that says about his overall chances of being ROY, but it says something that an average game from him is giving up 2 to 3 goals, and he tends to bounce back and play even better when he gives up something he shouldn't have.
He has some things to learn, I think, but his stats seem to indicate, overall, his level of play relative to other goaltenders in the league. The Rangers, while playing a system now and working harder than in years past, are still not a stellar defensive team, overall. Many times this year, they will live or die by their goaltender.
Crosby and Ovechkin are close to each other, enough to argue about their worth. Lundqvist has been playing at the top of the -league- compared to other goaltenders, and the statistics don't lie, in this case. I'm not sure why he isn't being talked about more.
He has some things to learn, I think, but his stats seem to indicate, overall, his level of play relative to other goaltenders in the league. The Rangers, while playing a system now and working harder than in years past, are still not a stellar defensive team, overall. Many times this year, they will live or die by their goaltender.
Crosby and Ovechkin are close to each other, enough to argue about their worth. Lundqvist has been playing at the top of the -league- compared to other goaltenders, and the statistics don't lie, in this case. I'm not sure why he isn't being talked about more.
tom_servo
Registered User
As of this moment, it would be pretty difficult to deny a guy who scored 12 goals in his first 15 games. But you know that Crosby is just itching for some 4 or 5-point nights.
When you're talking about the difference between Crosby and Ovechkin, yes, but consider that the leading scorers in the league are scoring around 25-28 points right now. Lundqvist is nearly leading the entire -league- in save percentage and goals against average, beating the likes of Hasek.
Or does being #2 in the league in goaltending categories not count as much as being #13 in points or #5 in goals?
Or does being #2 in the league in goaltending categories not count as much as being #13 in points or #5 in goals?
expensivedirt said:
THe Penguins ice 7 players per shift? Wow... I can't believe they have so much trouble winnign games...
2Leetch_94
Kreid Me A River
Henrik Lundqvist:
11 GS
7 W
2 L
2 OTL
21 GA
325 SA
304 SV
1 SO
GAA = (GA*60)/Minutes Played - (21*60)/671 = 1.88 GAA
SV% = (Shots Faced - Goals Allowed)/Shots Faced - (325 - 21)/325 = 0.935 SV%
Starts Vs:
Nov 19 @ TAM
Nov 9 @ FLA
Oct 31 MON
Oct 29 @ MON
Oct 27 NYI
Oct 22 @ BUF
Oct 19 NYI
Oct 17 FLA
Oct 15 ATL
Oct 13 NJD
Oct 8 @ NJD
The fact is, the Rangers are a better team when Lundqvist is in goal. Oh, and anyone see the pass he made tonight against Tampa? That was an excellent read and pass on Henrik's end, of course he has to work on some things but what 23 year old goaltender doesn't? It's still way too early to say who's to win ROY, because we don't know when someone will go into a cold streak, who will still be the hottest, who might miss a few games due to an injury, so many factors BUT if you are going to talk about ROY in November, you can't leave Lundqvist out of the mix, because his 1.88 GAA and .935 SV% speak for itself.
11 GS
7 W
2 L
2 OTL
21 GA
325 SA
304 SV
1 SO
GAA = (GA*60)/Minutes Played - (21*60)/671 = 1.88 GAA
SV% = (Shots Faced - Goals Allowed)/Shots Faced - (325 - 21)/325 = 0.935 SV%
Starts Vs:
Nov 19 @ TAM
Nov 9 @ FLA
Oct 31 MON
Oct 29 @ MON
Oct 27 NYI
Oct 22 @ BUF
Oct 19 NYI
Oct 17 FLA
Oct 15 ATL
Oct 13 NJD
Oct 8 @ NJD
The fact is, the Rangers are a better team when Lundqvist is in goal. Oh, and anyone see the pass he made tonight against Tampa? That was an excellent read and pass on Henrik's end, of course he has to work on some things but what 23 year old goaltender doesn't? It's still way too early to say who's to win ROY, because we don't know when someone will go into a cold streak, who will still be the hottest, who might miss a few games due to an injury, so many factors BUT if you are going to talk about ROY in November, you can't leave Lundqvist out of the mix, because his 1.88 GAA and .935 SV% speak for itself.
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