Who should the Canucks target as their next GM?

CpatainCanuck

Registered User
Sep 18, 2008
6,702
3,482
How much do you think your opinion is worth when you attribute Holland's entire success to luck? Regardless of what he inherited, to keep a team in the playoffs for over 20 years speaks to his talent. Only SJ has been able to repeat that feat in recent times.

I don't attribute Holland's entire success to luck; I think he's probably a slightly above average GM in the nhl, but I also believe he's the most overrated GM in the league.

Before being promoted to GM, Holland was the Director of Amateur Scouting for 7 years and the AGM for 3 years, prior to becoming GM in 1997. Which means, he was Director of Amateur Scouting in 1990... Are you still sure it wasn't Ken Holland who hired Hakan Andersson, per the recommendation of Christer Rockstrom?

I looked up the article as I couldn't remember who had hired Hakan: as I said, it wasn't Ken Holland; it was actually Nick Polano.

Inside the life of Red Wings superscout Hakan Andersson

In July 1989, Detroit scouting director Neil Smith left the Red Wings to become GM of the Rangers. When he departed for New York, Smith brought along Christer Rockström, the European scout who a month earlier had been behind Detroit’s selection of defenseman Nicklas Lidström in the third round of the team’s epic draft. Red Wings assistant GM Nick Polano asked Rockström if he could recommend a replacement.

“[Håkan] had hunger,” says Rockström, 57, who spent 21 years with the Rangers and now works for the Canadiens. “He would be willing to go the extra mile for a team. And I knew he had a good eye. He’d been a pretty good youth player. He knew about puckhandling, skating, edges. He could look at a skater and tell you if a guy was stiff-kneed or knock-kneed.”

Polano flew to Stockholm, where Rockström introduced him to Andersson, a center whose playing career had been cut short before his 18th birthday because of a torn meniscus in his left knee. Polano told Andersson of the job opening in Detroit and then left for a scouting trip to Finland and Russia. When he returned, Polano took Andersson on a traveling job interview around the Swedish Elite League. “I’m telling him what to look for: skating, playmaking ability, hard work, someone who’s not intimidated,” says Polano, now a pro scout for the Senators. “I’d quiz him about this guy or that guy we were watching. And he was bang on. The guy was a natural. After a few days I’m thinking, I’m going to hire a fishing guide.


It doesn't matter what a GM is given, it's what a GM does with what he is given that matters. On that front, Ken Holland towers over many GMs in the game today. Recency bias doesn't overturn that opinion for me. Maybe it does for you?

I don't really think recency bias has much to do with it. I just don't think Ken Holland deserves much of his reputation.

I don't find Ken Holland's trade record to be that exceptional. Minor hits and misses for the most part.

History of NHL trades by the Detroit Red Wings - NHL Trade Tracker

I don't find his free agent signings record to be that great either. Hits and misses here again. Since the Red Wings have been in decline and aren't a choice destination for free agents anymore most of his signings have been rather pedestrian. Hossa and Hasek were great signings...1o years ago. What's his best signing in the last decade? Bertuzzi? You mentioned "Recency Bias". Is criticizing Holland for not doing much of anything in the last decade as the Red Wings core aged and became the Dead Wings "Recency Bias"? :laugh:

I maintain that Holland having success after inheriting the best team in the league in 1997 which included Yzerman, Lidstrom, Shanahan and Federov all in their prime years amongst many other great players doesn't really reflect his skill as a GM.

I also maintain that his drafting record in Europe, virtually the result of one Scout who he didn't hire, which allowed him to be the only GM in the NHL to draft two superstars in the later rounds in addition to many other great players also doesn't reflect his skill as a GM.

Evidently you disagree.

I would suggest that if Holland is hired by the Canucks and doesn't happen to inherit one of the all-time great team cores and the best scout in NHL history that the results may be quite different. Do you disagree with this statement?
 
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ErrantShepherd

Nostalgic despite the Bad
Dec 2, 2018
980
634
...Canada, eh?
So on Hextall, right now I'm reading up on him trying to get a sense of what kind of GM he was... I need some more articles and info here but so far, he isn't sounding bad.

The best and worst moves of Ron Hextall's tenure as Flyers GM - TheHockeyNews

According to this, he basically accumulated picks for the future and had a fairly conservative approach, and seemed to be making progress towards a rebuild, but just wasn't able to get a good looking goaltender? ...which the Flyers arguably already had in their system but just hadn't brought up yet?

:huh:

I feel like that's leaving a lot out, but are there more concrete reasons to why this guy was fired anyone knows of offhand?
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,797
4,012
Btw I really want to see a team run based on polls from knowledgeable posters. It’d be an interesting though impossible experiment.

Based on the opinions of those posters regarding the moves we did and didn't make, we certainly wouldn't have done any worse, and actually would've ended up with a better team than what Benning has put together.

Just from taking the players posters here wanted to draft in 2014 alone:

Tkachuk - Petterson - Konecny
Ehlers* - Point - Kase
Perreault - Horvat - Kassian
Barbashev - Richardson - MacEwen
Gaunce

Edler - Stecher*
Hutton - Tanev
Hamhuis - McKeown
Biega

Markstrom
Lack

+ 2nd rounder we moved for Sutter
+ 2nd and 4th rounders we moved for Gudbranson
+ 2nd rounder we moved for Baertschi
+ 2nd rounder we moved for Vey
+ 3rd rounder we moved for Dorsett
+ 2016 5th rounder we traded with Kassian
+ Asset(s) for Ryan Miller that Benning says he could've gotten
+ Assets from Hamhuis/Vrbata non-trades
* Acquired Vatanen/Theodore instead of Sbisa, Perreault instead of Bonino; Ehlers could've easily been replaced by Nylander

We literally could've had a better team in the present as well as a brighter future with more picks to rebuild. It's disgusting how much damage Benning has done.
 

Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
26,997
6,572
I don't attribute Holland's entire success to luck; I think he's probably a slightly above average GM in the nhl, but I also believe he's the most overrated GM in the league.

I looked up the article as I couldn't remember who had hired Hakan: as I said, it wasn't Ken Holland; it was actually Nick Polano.

Inside the life of Red Wings superscout Hakan Andersson

In July 1989, Detroit scouting director Neil Smith left the Red Wings to become GM of the Rangers. When he departed for New York, Smith brought along Christer Rockström, the European scout who a month earlier had been behind Detroit’s selection of defenseman Nicklas Lidström in the third round of the team’s epic draft. Red Wings assistant GM Nick Polano asked Rockström if he could recommend a replacement.

“[Håkan] had hunger,” says Rockström, 57, who spent 21 years with the Rangers and now works for the Canadiens. “He would be willing to go the extra mile for a team. And I knew he had a good eye. He’d been a pretty good youth player. He knew about puckhandling, skating, edges. He could look at a skater and tell you if a guy was stiff-kneed or knock-kneed.”

Polano flew to Stockholm, where Rockström introduced him to Andersson, a center whose playing career had been cut short before his 18th birthday because of a torn meniscus in his left knee. Polano told Andersson of the job opening in Detroit and then left for a scouting trip to Finland and Russia. When he returned, Polano took Andersson on a traveling job interview around the Swedish Elite League. “I’m telling him what to look for: skating, playmaking ability, hard work, someone who’s not intimidated,” says Polano, now a pro scout for the Senators. “I’d quiz him about this guy or that guy we were watching. And he was bang on. The guy was a natural. After a few days I’m thinking, I’m going to hire a fishing guide.


I don't really think recency bias has much to do with it. I just don't think Ken Holland deserves much of his reputation.

I don't find Ken Holland's trade record to be that exceptional. Minor hits and misses for the most part.

History of NHL trades by the Detroit Red Wings - NHL Trade Tracker

I don't find his free agent signings record to be that great either. Hits and misses here again. Since the Red Wings have been in decline and aren't a choice destination for free agents anymore most of his signings have been rather pedestrian. Hossa and Hasek were great signings...1o years ago. What's his best signing in the last decade? Bertuzzi? You mentioned "Recency Bias". Is criticizing Holland for not doing much of anything in the last decade as the Red Wings core aged and became the Dead Wings "Recency Bias"? :laugh:

I maintain that Holland having success after inheriting the best team in the league in 1997 which included Yzerman, Lidstrom, Shanahan and Federov all in their prime years amongst many other great players doesn't really reflect his skill as a GM.

I also maintain that his drafting record in Europe, virtually the result of one Scout who he didn't hire, which allowed him to be the only GM in the NHL to draft two superstars in the later rounds in addition to many other great players also doesn't reflect his skill as a GM.

Evidently you disagree.

I would suggest that if Holland is hired by the Canucks and doesn't happen to inherit one of the all-time great team cores and the best scout in NHL history that the results may be quite different. Do you disagree with this statement?


I didn't know Polano hired Hakan. Good homework check. Despite the find, I think it's highly debatable that Hakan's work did not filter through Holland while the latter was the Director of Amateur Scouting. There's a chain of command, after all. It is the DoS's job to listen at certain times, and overrule at other times. As a result, it's unlikely that Hakan was allowed to operate in a completely autonomous fashion. Agree or disagree?

What is your take on GMs that are worthy of high praise? Who are they and why do they deserve it?

On your point about Recency Bias: When you invalidate 20+ years of playoff appearances to isolate the last decade in trades, I'd call that recency bias. You are effectively ignoring half the older data when doing this. Not only that, you are criticizing trades that fall within the window of 20+ playoff appearances. Which requires a certain level of incongruous thinking, I would say.

On Inheriting stars: It's what he did with them that matters. At the very best of times, I wouldn't expect the average GM to generate 20+ years of playoff returns, even when a core is rebuilt on the fly. That is an amazing feat. Nothing you have said really combats this... and nothing really will.

If Holland is hired by the Canucks, it will likely be a significant improvement over what Benning has done here. That's all I'm expecting. I don't envision the Canucks to morph into the late 90s Wings. No, not at all. However, I do envision an emphasis on skill -- in both amateur and pro scouting. I envision an emphasis on drafting by frequency. That alone is light years ahead of what we have now.

To be clear, I'd take Holland over Benning any day.
 

Nomobo

Registered User
Feb 20, 2015
6,134
2,856
Victoria
I love Ferraro!! He’s likeable, says it how it is and knows what he’s talking about it. If he was involved in some way, shape or form I’d be onboard!
It’s one thing to say it as it is on radio where controversy brings in listeners but a whole other when you have media and fans scrutinizing every word you say. You know, like, show me the money.
 

VanillaCoke

Registered User
Oct 30, 2013
24,963
11,304
With some candidates eliminated like Brisbois (sad) and holland (good), can only hope for a huge upgrade at our GM position after this season.

Who's on the shortlist now?

Gillis / Gilman combo?
Separate?
Norm MacIver?
Futa?
Mark Hunter?
 
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Zippgunn

Registered User
May 15, 2011
3,929
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Lhuntshi
So much energy and hatred being burned up here (and in other similar threads) when it is obvious to anybody who is capable of looking at the big picture that it is the ownership that is what is ruining this franchise. The likelihood of actual quality front office people signing up to be just another one of FAQ's yes-men is remote at best and I firmly believe that no matter who we end up replacing Benning with there will be little to no improvement in the team's fortunes. Not until this team is sold will it ever approach contender grade IMHO.
 

ginner classic

Dammit Jim!
Mar 4, 2002
10,634
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Douglas Park
I think the majority of us believe Benning is garbage and our future success depends on hiring a capable GM. However I haven't seen much talk of who we could hire; what are some of our realistic options?

I don't mean to be a dick but you never cited my work on that list. :)
 

ginner classic

Dammit Jim!
Mar 4, 2002
10,634
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Douglas Park
So we are down to Futa, Gilman, Hextall and Lombardi. I am kind of hoping that Columbus over-reacts to Kekalainen going all in. A Gilman (President)/Kekalainen (GM) tandem would be dope. Gilman/Hextall would be a great combo too.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

Registered User
Oct 1, 2017
25,988
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Whoever can say 'yes Francesco, I agree'.....You would have to be pretty naive to think that ownership is going to relinquish control completely..to anybody.

Bringing up Gillis and Gilman as candidates is comical...
 
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vanarchy

May 3, 2013
9,100
8,355
Matt Benning

Youth on the ice and in the office.

source.gif
 
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vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,797
4,012
So much energy and hatred being burned up here (and in other similar threads) when it is obvious to anybody who is capable of looking at the big picture that it is the ownership that is what is ruining this franchise. The likelihood of actual quality front office people signing up to be just another one of FAQ's yes-men is remote at best and I firmly believe that no matter who we end up replacing Benning with there will be little to no improvement in the team's fortunes. Not until this team is sold will it ever approach contender grade IMHO.

Aqulini's involvement is overblown IMO. Yes, he may want a playoff team but that shouldn't equate to making dumb moves that kill both the future and the present. Had he hired a smart GM we would already be competitive by now, while also having future assets still.

Having Aqua as the owner is not an excuse.
 
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Pastor Of Muppetz

Registered User
Oct 1, 2017
25,988
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Aqulini's involvement is overblown IMO. Yes, he may want a playoff team but that shouldn't equate to making dumb moves that kill both the future and the present. Had he hired a smart GM we would already be competitive by now, while also having future assets still.

Having Aqua as the owner is not an excuse.
Aqua is not the excuse?..but apparently, he literally employs a guy that's killed the past, present, and future of the team?..Okey Dokey.

FYI...Aqua didn't hire the GM...but he did extend him.
 

The Drop

Rain Drop, Drop Top
Jul 12, 2015
14,873
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Vancouver
So we are down to Futa, Gilman, Hextall and Lombardi. I am kind of hoping that Columbus over-reacts to Kekalainen going all in. A Gilman (President)/Kekalainen (GM) tandem would be dope. Gilman/Hextall would be a great combo too.
Lombardi has already said he’s not interested. Twice.
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,797
4,012
Aqua is not the excuse?..but apparently, he literally employs a guy that's killed the past, present, and future of the team?..Okey Dokey.

FYI...Aqua didn't hire the GM...but he did extend him.

Aqua is a simple-minded trust fund baby who only wants one thing: money. It doesn't mean he's smart.

Stop blaming Benning's failures on the owner and start seeing them for whose they really are: his own.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

Registered User
Oct 1, 2017
25,988
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Aqua is a simple-minded trust fund baby who only wants one thing: money. It doesn't mean he's smart.

Stop blaming Benning's failures on the owner and start seeing them for whose they really are: his own.
So Aqua is rich and dumb (but still needs more money)..and Benning has destroyed the Canucks past, present and future..All the old cliche's together ...Brilliant.
 

Pavel96

Registered User
Apr 7, 2015
2,452
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So Aqua is rich and dumb (but still needs more money)..and Benning has destroyed the Canucks past, present and future..All the old cliche's together ...Brilliant.
Lol, he suggested you look at "Benning's failures" and you took that too - " and Benning has destroyed the Canucks past, present and future".

Now that's - "Brilliant".


Hmm, could it be possible that Jim and Fran are both terrible for this franchise?
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

Registered User
Oct 1, 2017
25,988
15,857
Lol, he suggested you look at "Benning's failures" and you took that too - " and Benning has destroyed the Canucks past, present and future".

Now that's - "Brilliant".


Hmm, could it be possible that Jim and Fran are both terrible for this franchise?
Benning obviously made mistakes..but the plan, right from the beginning (from the ownership and the President) was to make the playoffs...and this happened up until 2017.

Benning has ruined the franchise forever are his words (vanuck), not mine...
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,797
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I like how you're putting words in my mouth now in order to make your point.

Now that's brilliant.
 
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