Speculation: Who Should Detroit Pick at 4th?
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Barry Amsterdam
Nättias Dänielstrom
- Apr 2, 2013
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He was given less than 10 minutes of icetime IIRC.
I can respect that opinion. I liked him before last season and nothing that happened this season changed my opinion on him, just that Stutzle played very well.
I agree that the DEL has gotten better, and Mannheim is a very good team all things considered. But the overall quality difference in the league is clear and last year's Frolunda team was deep. Due to that Stutzle was given much more of an opportunity to succeed last year than Raymond was and made the most of it. Now that Raymond is playing up in the lineup, he's showing the kind of production a top tier player should. Not sure I see where the risk is with Raymond, personally, his skating and edgework and are good enough to make his style of play work in the NHL.
Edit:
Big Lol on Ottawa taking Drysdale. Also, yuck at drafting Rossi or Holtz at 4. At least Ken Daniels makes a decent pick.
newfy
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- Jul 28, 2010
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Yeah, people are going crazy because he lit up the preseason and has a ocuple PP points this year. It doesnt change the fact that he plays the perimeter. Hes absolutely not a better prospect than Stutzle and some recent scoring doesnt change that.
Raymond averaged a little more than 10 minutes per game last year. His latest game this year he played 15 minutes. And he's producing with the expanded role which is great
I like Stutzle as much as the next guy but Raymond is and will continue to be a much better goal scorer than Stutzle. That's something that won't change regardless of a few PP goals. I'm not sure this is nearly as open and shut of a case as you're painting it. For me, while I prefer Stutzle ever so slightly, Raymond is in the Andrei Svechnikov-tier line-driving Wing prospects. I'm not sure how a transition year, to the Pros, on a deep Frolunda team makes him a perimeter player.
newfy
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If you think Svechnikov and Raymond were in the same realm as prospects I dont know what to tell you. Svechnikov was on a different level from Stutzle, forget about Raymond
I liked Svech plenty in his draft year, but I didn't have him head and shoulders above Zadina, Hughes or Dobson (my next 3 players, in order), only slightly ahead. The only player that I had in another realm from others (at the top end) was Dahlin. I still think highly of all four players, and that they will be difference makers at some point in their careers for their teams. Svech has obviously impressed a great deal, and Carolina is fortunate to have him, but I think about as highly as I do of him as I do of Stutzle/Raymond this year. Hypothetically, if we could someone transplant 18 year old Svech into this year's draft, I would still take Laf and Byfield over him, because Laf has been excellent for years and Byfield has a world of potential. I'm willing to admit that I'm probably wrong, but its fun to speculate.
Realgud
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You can't say that when some scouts have had Raymond at 2/3 for the entire year. Preseason games did not change anything for them. Raymond is a much more intelligent player with a similar skillset and a better shot, and much better defensively. What's happening with Raymond is exactly what happened with Seider last year.
newfy
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Not going to get into Laf or Byfield over Svechnikov at draft time, but I can tell you with 99.9% certainty that every single GM is taking Svechnikov over Raymond. They arent the same realm of prospect to be honest.
Svechnikov was ranked unanimously 2nd overall in whats turning out to be a really good draft by Mackenzie for example. And was considered by a lot to be closer to Dahlin than the rest of the field was to him. Raymond is getting ranked 5-11 as a spread this year. I dont mean this in an insulting way but if you didnt have him head and shoulders above a guy like Dobson at draft time, it says more about your evaluation than about the actual calibre of the prospects. Svechnikov would get some real consideration with Lafreniere this year.
Raymond is much more intelligent, with a similar skill set, a better shot and much better defensively? You cant be serious? Why is one ranked almost unanimously top 3 in a tier of its own and the other expected to go 5-10? You literally just described Raymond as a clearly superior prospect to Stutzle without question and yet basically no one reputable or with sources are ranking it close to that.
This is the exact type of people going crazy stupid shit I was talking about to be honest.
Realgud
Jersey ads are a disgrace
If you're gonna call people stupid because you seem so stuck up in your meaningless "consensus" ranking, then so be it, nothing I can really do about it. But something tells me you have not watched either of these players in their respective leagues (DEL and SHL). You can be mad all you want, but yes I am 100% serious, I have watched both enough and I don't get blinded by flashiness. Stützle is an impressive talent, but he doesn't think the game at the level of someone like Raymond.
You must be extremely mad that we drafted Seider last year I assume?
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WingsMJN2965
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- Oct 13, 2017
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I swear Art says the most ridiculous shit just to try to get attention.
Last year he was insistent on us taking Tide-Pod.
I'm not claiming to be any kind of authority, following prospects is for fun primarily and I am about as layman as they come. That said, I could care less what the consensus is among scouts, I've been high on prospects scouts didn't like and proven right, and I've been too negative on prospects too. And even then, the consensus among fans like us or the media is rarely (if ever) 100% right on the money either. What, am I to just buy into the hype in fear of being wrong? No fun in that.
Also, the Wings did not have Svech in their top 3 in 2018, they had Dahlin, Tkachuk and Zadina (in that order), so they were passing on him pretty much no matter what. So to say that Svech was the 100% consensus next-best-guy among scouts is wrong. If I had seen that top 3 I would have disagreed with it (as I wasn't as high on Tkachuk) but that list was generated through thousands of man-hours over the course of years. Could I really say to have a better authority than a team? No, but there are certain things I like to see when I'm viewing hockey and that guides my perception of how players turn out. Projecting how an 18 year old turns out is an inexact science at best and is really more akin to high stakes gambling. Teams, analysts and fans will all continue to be incorrect to some degree, which is why I take even my own personal feelings with a grain of salt. See Pettersson's pre-draft consensus. He wasn't viewed as a slam dunk franchise 1C by a lot of fans, media or even teams (barring Vancouver and Detroit). Look at how those takes have panned out. I'll cheer for whoever the Wings draft, I'm about as big of a homer as any, but that doesn't mean I'll agree with every choice simply because they've had more people spending more time on this project.
In sum, I'm hearing a lot of ad populum in lieu of addressing the fact that you simply disagree with my take on Raymond. I'm not hearing a lot of reasons why you think Raymond is a perimeter player, which is something I disagree with fairly heavily. His biggest strength, outside of hands and vision, is his tenacity and I've seen him take on much larger players time and again. If I had any legitimate concern of him as a player, it would be that at times his confidence looked completely deflated last year. I think he was overwhelmed at times with the level of physicality in the SHL and it made him either more tentative at times or too hurried in other times. This, while concerning, I think is mitigated by his naturally high-motor as well as the fact he came into the season looking like he added muscle and has gotten his swagger back a bit. I could care less about how he produces over a few games, he has simply looked much more pro-ready than last year. As I've said elsewhere, if you're already on the Raymond train, his play thus far will only make you more comfortable.
To be clear, I still prefer Stutzle to Raymond, but it is mostly from the fact that Stutzle feels like a more pro-ready player and is, slightly likelier to succeed and plays the more important position. But Raymond has as good of an offensive toolkit as any player in this draft and plays with tremendous pace off the puck too. He's smallish like Rossi or Perfetti, but unlike them skating is far from a concern. He isn't as fast or as dynamic of a skater as Stutzle, but his goal scoring is right up there with Laf, Perreault, Perfetti and Quinn at the top of the class. Whoever drafts Raymond is getting a very high end prospect and will be pleased IMO.
TL;DR: I'll take the bet on Stutzle, but I am not prepared to say either Raymond or Stutzle has the higher the ceiling than the other. Also, I don't care all that much about consensus.
Henkka
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Killerjas
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How to get noticed in the scouting world:
Step 1: Look at other people's top 5 lists
Step 2: Make a bold prediction not based on needs of a team and saying a team is gonna select someone off the boards
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit
Step 1: Look at other people's top 5 lists
Step 2: Make a bold prediction not based on needs of a team and saying a team is gonna select someone off the boards
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit
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