Who might Dubas trade first, Marner or Nylander?

[Notsince67]

I never said that. My point that I was trying to convey was that I don’t get attached to these players. They are not heroes. They are just mercenaries. Winning, that’s all I care about.

If that is all you care about, you should puck another team lol

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Bench Nylander for a year without pay until he comes to his senses. Leafs literally held all the leverage.

I think that would have been the right thing to do.
Only a rare greddy bird like Nylander would sit out like that.
He should have been bridged.

Dubas squandered it, and thus the Marner contract, who IMO is overpaid by 3 million.

Thats pretty accurate.

 

[horner]

Nylander at $7 million and 60-70 points

Marner at $11 million and 80-90 points

Not sure the $4 million is worth the extra 10-20 points.

Ultimately it would depend on the return. If the return made sense i think they need to. Especially if they can sign pietrangelo.

As an example to sens for tkatchuk and their 2nd. If you can get that plus pietrangelo how do you not move marner.

Marner 90 to 100 point pace the last 2 yrs.
He had an off yr last year, kills penalties gives alot more than willy .

Nylander could be a great player but doesn't show it every game.

When Mathews was not playing well 2 yrs ago people were chomping at the bit to have Marner play with Mathews.

 

[egd27]

Former players, current players and even guys who don’t make it all have connections through the league. It’s beyond bizarre to think that they don’t.

Yes, yes it is.

 

[gabeliscious]

Marner 90 to 100 point pace the last 2 yrs.
He had an off yr last year, kills penalties gives alot more than willy .

Nylander could be a great player but doesn't show it every game.

When Mathews was not playing well 2 yrs ago people were chomping at the bit to have Marner play with Mathews.

Im not questioning who is better. I was arguing that relatively to their contract, nylander is better value.

If we had to trade one of them, if you could get amazing value for marner in a trade and use the cap space to sign pietrangelo we could replace marner with a 50 point winger and probably be a better overall team.

Im not suggesting we trade marner for less than 1.5 on the 1. For what its worth, i dont think we land pietrangelo. I think we trade johnsson and sign brodie. I think brodie if healthy is a more realistic target

 

[horner]

Im not questioning who is better. I was arguing that relatively to their contract, nylander is better value.

If we had to trade one of them, if you could get amazing value for marner in a trade and use the cap space to sign pietrangelo we could replace marner with a 50 point winger and probably be a better overall team.

Im not suggesting we trade marner for less than 1.5 on the 1. For what its worth, i dont think we land pietrangelo. I think we trade johnsson and sign brodie. I think brodie if healthy is a more realistic target

Np

 

[horner]

Im not questioning who is better. I was arguing that relatively to their contract, nylander is better value.

If we had to trade one of them, if you could get amazing value for marner in a trade and use the cap space to sign pietrangelo we could replace marner with a 50 point winger and probably be a better overall team.

Im not suggesting we trade marner for less than 1.5 on the 1. For what its worth, i dont think we land pietrangelo. I think we trade johnsson and sign brodie. I think brodie if healthy is a more realistic target

Personally I thought when we signed taveras we should went after a couple of solide dfenceman.

It's funny now we may have to trade Marner or Nylander to correct that mistake.

Leaf management always does things as backwards.

 

[Notsince67]

Im not questioning who is better. I was arguing that relatively to their contract, nylander is better value.

If we had to trade one of them, if you could get amazing value for marner in a trade and use the cap space to sign pietrangelo we could replace marner with a 50 point winger and probably be a better overall team.

Im not suggesting we trade marner for less than 1.5 on the 1. For what its worth, i dont think we land pietrangelo. I think we trade johnsson and sign brodie. I think brodie if healthy is a more realistic target

Sure would be better if the team got 40 less points in a year.
Better value for the dollar.
The problem is that I really dont sound that smart saying it myself. You ever have that problem?

 

[gabeliscious]

Sure would be better if the team got 40 less points in a year.
Better value for the dollar.
The problem is that I really dont sound that smart saying it myself. You ever have that problem?

If we score 40 less goals but also give up 80 less are we a better or worse team.

 

[Notsince67]

If we score 40 less goals but also give up 80 less are we a better or worse team.

So Marner in the last full year was on ice for 53 goals. You expect a player will allow negative 27 goals?

 

[cannucky]

So Marner in the last full year was on ice for 53 goals. You expect a player will allow negative 27 goals?

Nobody seems to mind Reilly being dash 40 over his career with a plus 24 outlier season thrown in .

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I wouldn't trade either, because neither is the problem.

The problem is not the core group, Freddy included, if Khudobin can get you to a final so can Freddy.

The problem is the RD, Justin Holl is basically the ONLY RD we have THAT'S the problem it's time for Dubas to do his job and actually try to fix that.

You don't need Pietrangelo to do it either, that would be AMAZING but it's not necessary.

Get 2 of Savard, Manson, Larsson, Hjalmarsson, Risto, Hamonic, Brodie, Pietrangelo, Gudas, Letang Tanev etc. and you are fine.

The big fish would be AMAZING but it's not needed this time 2 mid level guys would good enough

 

[therealkoho]

You show your work lol.

It's more of a hot take saying he is a top 5 winger in the NHL than saying he is not.

which I never said

 

[therealkoho]

Kadri - 36 points.
Marner - 67 points.

only in the NHL do points not matter, apparently

 

[Notsince67]

only in the NHL do points not matter, apparently

Zone entries are the only thing that do apparently

 

[Trapper]

I though winning in the playoffs mattered?

If you can do that with this core and build, great.
If not, you’d better change it.
I don’t really care who anyone’s BAE is.

 

[SlpLessInMuskoka18]

I though winning in the playoffs mattered?

If you can do that with this core and build, great.
If not, you’d better change it.
I don’t really care who anyone’s BAE is.

The only team that won was Tampa. Shame. Shame. Shame. To the rest of the league. Buncha slugs n plugs

Sell em all cut em lose buncha scrubs

 

[Trapper]

The only team that won was Tampa. Shame. Shame. Shame. To the rest of the league. Buncha slugs n plugs

Sell em all cut em lose buncha scrubs

Well maybe not all. I mean even the teams that can win a playoff round gotta be one up on us.
Right? Right?

 

[sittler rules!!!]

The only team that won was Tampa. Shame. Shame. Shame. To the rest of the league. Buncha slugs n plugs

Sell em all cut em lose buncha scrubs

Weak!!! Very weak!!

 

[meefer]

I wouldn't trade either, because neither is the problem.

The problem is not the core group, Freddy included, if Khudobin can get you to a final so can Freddy.

The problem is the RD, Justin Holl is basically the ONLY RD we have THAT'S the problem it's time for Dubas to do his job and actually try to fix that.

You don't need Pietrangelo to do it either, that would be AMAZING but it's not necessary.

Get 2 of Savard, Manson, Larsson, Hjalmarsson, Risto, Hamonic, Brodie, Pietrangelo, Gudas, Letang Tanev etc. and you are fine.

The big fish would be AMAZING but it's not needed this time 2 mid level guys would good enough

Fully agree with the idea of getting two defensemen. Then trade Holl. He's a decent enough player, but it's time to insert Liljegren. Put him with Muzzin. Worst case scenario is he busts, but then we've Dermott and Lehtonen as fall back options. Brodie would be my first hope, then DeMelo.

 

[kb]

Fully agree with the idea of getting two defensemen. Then trade Holl. He's a decent enough player, but it's time to insert Liljegren. Put him with Muzzin. Worst case scenario is he busts, but then we've Dermott and Lehtonen as fall back options. Brodie would be my first hope, then DeMelo.

In a cap tight era, I really believe the Leafs shouldn't be in a rush to trade a $2M RD so the Leafs can sign 2 name brand average players (who may not even be as good as Holl), while most likely paying double for that privilege. Plus having to insert a rookie RD who the Leafs will have to shelter, and have to pray plays well.

Doesn't seem like a sound way to go about improving a D-core. You need bang for your cap buck, which means more Holls, not less. Grabbing 2 mediocre $4M players that may or may not be upgrades doesn't move the needle much for the Leafs.

His numbers last year with both Muzzin and Dermott were very good, and that was facing top pairing competition more and more as the year went on. Making errors happens, but as long as it doesn't end up in the back of your net it is inconsequential as every single D playing this game has turnovers.

I believe @Zybalto has numbers when Dermott and Holl were together during the point where Rielly, Muzzin, and Ceci were out, and it was off the charts good for restricting GA/60.

And we tend to forget that this for all intents and purposes was his rookie season, and he definitely didn't play like a rookie.

I still say this slots everyone perfectly, with the ability to change pairings up based on game situations.

Rielly - AP
Muzzin - Holl
Dermott - Lehtonen

If Lehtonen comes as advertised, he could bump Holl down to the 3rd pairing where him and Dermott could be the shutdown pair and even as is, no Dman or pairing would require sheltering. I believe with Liljegren in the lineup, he would need to be heavily sheltered.

JMHO.

 

[meefer]

In a cap tight era, I really believe the Leafs shouldn't be in a rush to trade a $2M RD so the Leafs can sign 2 name brand average players (who may not even be as good as Holl), while most likely paying double for that privilege. Plus having to insert a rookie RD who the Leafs will have to shelter, and have to pray plays well.

Doesn't seem like a sound way to go about improving a D-core. You need bang for your cap buck, which means more Holls, not less. Grabbing 2 mediocre $4M players that may or may not be upgrades doesn't move the needle much for the Leafs.

His numbers last year with both Muzzin and Dermott were very good, and that was facing top pairing competition more and more as the year went on. Making errors happens, but as long as it doesn't end up in the back of your net it is inconsequential as every single D playing this game has turnovers.

I believe @Zybalto has numbers when Dermott and Holl were together during the point where Rielly, Muzzin, and Ceci were out, and it was off the charts good for restricting GA/60.

And we tend to forget that this for all intents and purposes was his rookie season, and he definitely didn't play like a rookie.

I still say this slots everyone perfectly, with the ability to change pairings up based on game situations.

Rielly - AP
Muzzin - Holl
Dermott - Lehtonen

If Lehtonen comes as advertised, he could bump Holl down to the 3rd pairing where him and Dermott could be the shutdown pair and even as is, no Dman or pairing would require sheltering. I believe with Liljegren in the lineup, he would need to be heavily sheltered.

JMHO.

And a reasonably argued opinion at that. A few comments if I may. First, my description of Holl as being 'a decent enough player' was doing him a bit of a disservice. On his own I don't find him to do anything especially well, but as you state, his work with Muzz was effective. It was a solid pair. With Dermott, re: Zybalto, I can't comment. Regarding Brodie, he's the guy Calgary partnered with Gio when Gio won the Norris. His contributions cannot go unrecognized or thought of as defining an average player. I imagine him being capable of the same for Rielly. DeMelo is our replacement for Holl, as I suggested Holl might be used in a trade with Vancouver. I won't suggest DeMelo is far superior, but his efforts in Winnipeg suggest he's capable of surviving a heavy load. As to Liljegren, I believe we have a sleeper here. An AHL Allstar at 21, steadily improving and physically fit for a position in the NHL. What he lacks is the support of a capable partner, one who can help him transition to the league successfully. I can't imagine (on the Leafs) a better partner than Muzzin. If we're going to bring these kids up to the big league, let's do it in a manner that offers them a chance at success. Imo, the most important part of that is providing the kid with a quality partner, someone he can learn from, bounce ideas off of, ride him when needed, support him when he's down. Should that fail, DeMelo could move up and succeed. I'd add, the net salaries I suggested for the two are less than the cost of AP and Holl, increasing flexibility elsewhere.

I get the Pietrangelo angle, he's a heck of a player. But financing about 50M into 5 players...sheesh, that's a heck of a risk.

 

[CertifiedGoat]

I would trade Marner because it is much more likely that you can make your team better while also saving cap or significantly shifting the structure of your cap by moving him.

But if it were really up to me, both these players would be moved at some point before their contracts are up. Neither of them are worth the headache they bring when it comes to these contract negotiations.

They both proved they are not team first players. Tough reality, but it is what it is.

 

[ponder]

Marner is a much better player, but there’s strong arguments for trading him anyways:

• Once his signing bonus is paid this year (has that already happened?), $30.3 mil of Marner’s $65.4 mil deal will already have been paid, just 1 year in. That means he’s owed $35.1 mil in real money over 5 years, averaging about $7 mil per year. For teams that are constrained by real money, not the cap, he’s actually on a pretty good contract
• He’s a young franchise winger, rare to be able to trade for a player like that. Combine this with his contract, and I believe his trade value would be would be extremely high to non-cap teams
• We’re VERY cap constrained, though, and his cap hit sucks. Nearly $4 mil higher than Nylander. The main point of this deal would be freeing up cap space, and a Marner trade does that far better

I’d have to see what deals are on the table for each player, but trading Marner could make a tonne of sense. I love him as a player, but his contract is a MAJOR problem for us, especially with the flat cap now. During negotiations Marner was way too greedy, and Dubas way too soft. He should be on an $8-9 mil cap hit, not almost $11 mil.

 

[34]

Marner. He is was way overpaid. That $11M could build our top 4 D.

Willy is only at $6.9 AAV, and progressing more than Marner is now. He is on a great contract. Willy is good for 30+ goals every season now. He may even hit 40.