Who is the worst player to have his # retired by a franchise?

[Normand Lacombe]

Wayne Huizenga, former owner of the Panthers.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

the canucks for a time had one of those lame “the fans” jersey retirement too.

kinda disrespectful to

RIP andre boudrias, the first of our tiny #7 skill centers

initiating a rich tradition, followed by

boooooo

yaaaaaaay

(linden vey, barf)

 

[The Panther]

Reading this thread: Poor Wendel... lol.

Or, you could also say, "Poor Leafs fans!"

It is stunning how few truly elite player/seasons the Maple Leafs have had since 1967 (in fact, probably well before that).

Since the 1967 Stanley Cup (52 years ago, mind!), here are the Leafs' individual season leaders (min. 40 games played) compared to some other high-profile / Canadian clubs:

Number of 1.50+ PPG player-seasons:
0 - Vancouver
1 - Toronto (Gilmour in '93)
2 - NYR
5 - Detroit
6 - Montreal
14 - Boston
16 - Edmonton
21 - Pittsburgh

Number of 1.25+ PPG player-seasons:
6 - Toronto
7 - Vancouver
10 - NYR
13 - Detroit
15 - Montreal
32 - Boston
33 - Edmonton
45 - Pittsburgh

Number of 130+ point player-seasons:
0 - Toronto
0 - NYR
0 - Vancouver
2 - Detroit
2 - Montreal
7 - Boston
7 - Pittsburgh
12 - Edmonton

Number of 100+ point player-seasons:
4 - Toronto
6 - NYR
6 - Vancouver
10 - Montreal
11 - Detroit
24 - Boston
32 - Edmonton
34 - Pittsburgh

Number of 50+ goal player-seasons:
3 - NYR
4 - Vancouver
5 - Toronto (three of these were Rick Vaive in the highest-scoring small period in modern history)
10 - Montreal
11 - Boston
11 - Detroit
16 - Pittsburgh
16 - Edmonton

Number of 70+ assist player-seasons:
3 - Detroit
3 - Toronto
3 - Vancouver
6 - NYR
6 - Montreal
18 - Boston
18 - Pittsburgh
18 - Edmonton

Number of players finishing at +50 or better in a season:
0 - Toronto
0 - Vancouver
1 - Detroit
1 - Pittsburgh
4 - NYR
13 - Edmonton
17 - Boston
22 - Montreal

Number of 23.0% or better shooting-percentage player-seasons:
0 - Toronto
4 - Detroit
4 - Montreal
6 - NYR
6 - Vancouver
8 - Pittsburgh
10 - Boston
12 - Edmonton

Number of Hart trophy winners:
0 - Toronto
1 - Detroit
1 - NYR
1 - Vancouver
3 - Montreal
5 - Boston (not counting Joe Thornton in '06)
7 - Pittsburgh
10 - Edmonton

Number of Art Ross trophy winners:
0 - Toronto
0 - Detroit
0 - NYR
1 - Vancouver
3 - Montreal
7 - Boston (not counting Joe Thornton in '06)
9 - Edmonton
15 - Pittsburgh

Number of Norris trophy winners:
0 - Toronto
0 - Vancouver
1 - Pittsburgh
2 - NYR (another Ranger, Harry Howell, won it in '67)
2 - Edmonton
4 - Montreal
8 - Detroit
14 - Boston

Number of (retro or real) Maurice Richard trophy winners:
0 - Toronto
0 - NYR
0 - Detroit
1 - Vancouver (Bure missed making it 2 by only one goal in '98)
2 - Montreal
6 - Boston
6 - Pittsburgh
6 - Edmonton


I dunno, it's not really the case that great players haven't made it into the Blue & White, but they either don't stay long (Gilmour) or they get run out of town (Murphy, Kessel, or even Sittler as a veteran) or even when they're really great they somehow aren't fully appreciated or supported (Sundin).


Then, there's the real stickler numbers (although this has nothing to do with number retirement!):

Number of 1st-place (divisional) team finishes:
1 - Toronto
5 - NYR
6 - Edmonton
9 - Pittsburgh
10 - Vancouver
16 - Detroit
18 - Boston
19 - Montreal

Number of 1st OR 2nd-place (divisional) team finishes:
6 - Toronto
12 - Edmonton
14 - NYR
18 - Vancouver
21 - Pittsburgh
23 - Detroit
26 - Montreal
34 - Boston

and, of course...

Number of Stanley Cups:
0 - Toronto
0 - Vancouver
1 - NYR
3 - Boston
4 - Detroit
5 - Pittsburgh
5 - Edmonton
10 - Montreal


But of course, the real problem since '67 was...

I guess we should keep this in mind when considering players whose numbers are retired....

 

[sr edler]

Number of players finishing at +50 or better in a season:
0 - Toronto
0 - Detroit (Fedorov was +49)
0 - Vancouver

Vladimir Konstantinov was a league leading +60 in 1995–96.

 

[Canucks1096]

Clark
Linden
Wesley
Graves
Daneyko
Smyl

 

[The Panther]

Vladimir Konstantinov was a league leading +60 in 1995–96.

Thanks! (It's corrected, above.)

 

[NHL WAR]

The Leafs retired Wendel Clark's number!? Yikes.

But for a team as storied as Toronto to retire Clark's number is pretty baffling.

Shocked by the fact that Wendel Clark's number is retired. WTF?

Just to add some context to the Wendel Clark situation. Up until their centennial season, the Leafs didn't retire numbers ( with the exception of Ace Bailey's 6 and Bill Barilko's 5, but those were because of extreme circumstances.) Instead, they had a night of honour for the player which included the raising of a banner bearing their number, but the numbers were still fair game for current players. Why they chose to have an identical ceremony as a jersey retirement, but not actually retire the number, I don't know. Since Wendel Clark was the Leafs 1st overall pick, captain, heart and soul, good player and huge fan favourite, of course they are going to have a night for him. Great honour for him, treat for the fans, win-win scenario. Well then in the fall of 2016, a Shanahan led Leafs brass decide to join the club and retire numbers. Of course, you're going to start by simply retiring the numbers you've already "honoured." Most of these were slam dunks: Bower, Keon, Mahovlich, Salming, etc. Then you get to Clark and sure, he probably isn't quite up to the usual jersey retiree standard. However, are you going to have a huge ceremony for every other previously honoured player and all of a sudden exclude him? Obviously not. That would overshadow everything else and greatly weaken their relationship with one of their top ambassadors.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Seems like a bit of an unfair question, because number retirements are frequently done for reasons other than being a good player.

For that matter, is ANY number retired purely on the basis of "this guy was just such a good player that it had to be done"? Seems to me that there's always an element of "this guy meant a lot to our franchise" involved, just as much with the Gretzkys and Lemieuxs as with the Daneykos and Labres.

Number retirement isn't the HHOF, it's always about telling the story of an organization (unless I'm missing someone, but I don't think I am).

 

[Staniowski]

Seems like a bit of an unfair question, because number retirements are frequently done for reasons other than being a good player.

For that matter, is ANY number retired purely on the basis of "this guy was just such a good player that it had to be done"? Seems to me that there's always an element of "this guy meant a lot to our franchise" involved, just as much with the Gretzkys and Lemieuxs as with the Daneykos and Labres.

Number retirement isn't the HHOF, it's always about telling the story of an organization (unless I'm missing someone, but I don't think I am).

I agree. Everybody is free to debate whether a particular player is the worst player to have their number retired, but this is an entirely different matter than whether that player is worthy of having their number retired by a particular team.

 

[Staniowski]

Just to add some context to the Wendel Clark situation. Up until their centennial season, the Leafs didn't retire numbers ( with the exception of Ace Bailey's 6 and Bill Barilko's 5, but those were because of extreme circumstances.) Instead, they had a night of honour for the player which included the raising of a banner bearing their number, but the numbers were still fair game for current players. Why they chose to have an identical ceremony as a jersey retirement, but not actually retire the number, I don't know. Since Wendel Clark was the Leafs 1st overall pick, captain, heart and soul, good player and huge fan favourite, of course they are going to have a night for him. Great honour for him, treat for the fans, win-win scenario. Well then in the fall of 2016, a Shanahan led Leafs brass decide to join the club and retire numbers. Of course, you're going to start by simply retiring the numbers you've already "honoured." Most of these were slam dunks: Bower, Keon, Mahovlich, Salming, etc. Then you get to Clark and sure, he probably isn't quite up to the usual jersey retiree standard. However, are you going to have a huge ceremony for every other previously honoured player and all of a sudden exclude him? Obviously not. That would overshadow everything else and greatly weaken their relationship with one of their top ambassadors.

I think Wendel was a slam dunk for the Leafs too.

The Leafs have retired the numbers of 19 players; and they've honoured 14 players (all are among the 19 that have had their numbers retired) with statues on their Legends Row. Wendel is one of these 14 (Legends Row is now complete, at least for a long while).

When Wendel had his number honoured over a decade ago, he was introduced by the announcer as "the most beloved of all Maple Leafs". I think this is true at least for the past 50 years.

 

[NHL WAR]

I think Wendel was a slam dunk for the Leafs too.

The Leafs have retired the numbers of 19 players; and they've honoured 14 players (all are among the 19 that have had their numbers retired) with statues on their Legends Row. Wendel is one of these 14 (Legends Row is now complete, at least for a long while).

When Wendel had his number honoured over a decade ago, he was introduced by the announcer as "the most beloved of all Maple Leafs". I think this is at least true for the past 50 years.

Yup. It is for the best that he had his number retired. Especially after many fans lost their minds when Nylander switched to 88 ( Eric Lindros' number for all of 30 games with the Leafs.) The death toll would be countless if a current Leaf could switch to 17, a number that actually comes with big shoes to fill.

 

[Staniowski]

Or, you could also say, "Poor Leafs fans!"

It is stunning how few truly elite player/seasons the Maple Leafs have had since 1967 (in fact, probably well before that).

Since the 1967 Stanley Cup (52 years ago, mind!), here are the Leafs' individual season leaders (min. 40 games played) compared to some other high-profile / Canadian clubs:

Number of 1.50+ PPG player-seasons:
0 - Vancouver
1 - Toronto (Gilmour in '93)
2 - NYR
5 - Detroit
6 - Montreal
14 - Boston
16 - Edmonton
21 - Pittsburgh

Number of 1.25+ PPG player-seasons:
6 - Toronto
7 - Vancouver
10 - NYR
13 - Detroit
15 - Montreal
32 - Boston
33 - Edmonton
45 - Pittsburgh

Number of 130+ point player-seasons:
0 - Toronto
0 - NYR
0 - Vancouver
2 - Detroit
2 - Montreal
7 - Boston
7 - Pittsburgh
12 - Edmonton

Number of 100+ point player-seasons:
4 - Toronto
6 - NYR
6 - Vancouver
10 - Montreal
11 - Detroit
24 - Boston
32 - Edmonton
34 - Pittsburgh

Number of 50+ goal player-seasons:
3 - NYR
4 - Vancouver
5 - Toronto (three of these were Rick Vaive in the highest-scoring small period in modern history)
10 - Montreal
11 - Boston
11 - Detroit
16 - Pittsburgh
16 - Edmonton

Number of 70+ assist player-seasons:
3 - Detroit
3 - Toronto
3 - Vancouver
6 - NYR
6 - Montreal
18 - Boston
18 - Pittsburgh
18 - Edmonton

Number of players finishing at +50 or better in a season:
0 - Toronto
0 - Vancouver
1 - Detroit
1 - Pittsburgh
4 - NYR
13 - Edmonton
17 - Boston
22 - Montreal

Number of 23.0% or better shooting-percentage player-seasons:
0 - Toronto
4 - Detroit
4 - Montreal
6 - NYR
6 - Vancouver
8 - Pittsburgh
10 - Boston
12 - Edmonton

Number of Hart trophy winners:
0 - Toronto
1 - Detroit
1 - NYR
1 - Vancouver
3 - Montreal
5 - Boston (not counting Joe Thornton in '06)
7 - Pittsburgh
10 - Edmonton

Number of Art Ross trophy winners:
0 - Toronto
0 - Detroit
0 - NYR
1 - Vancouver
3 - Montreal
7 - Boston (not counting Joe Thornton in '06)
9 - Edmonton
15 - Pittsburgh

Number of Norris trophy winners:
0 - Toronto
0 - Vancouver
1 - Pittsburgh
2 - NYR (another Ranger, Harry Howell, won it in '67)
2 - Edmonton
4 - Montreal
8 - Detroit
14 - Boston

Number of (retro or real) Maurice Richard trophy winners:
0 - Toronto
0 - NYR
0 - Detroit
1 - Vancouver (Bure missed making it 2 by only one goal in '98)
2 - Montreal
6 - Boston
6 - Pittsburgh
6 - Edmonton


I dunno, it's not really the case that great players haven't made it into the Blue & White, but they either don't stay long (Gilmour) or they get run out of town (Murphy, Kessel, or even Sittler as a veteran) or even when they're really great they somehow aren't fully appreciated or supported (Sundin).


Then, there's the real stickler numbers (although this has nothing to do with number retirement!):

Number of 1st-place (divisional) team finishes:
1 - Toronto
5 - NYR
6 - Edmonton
9 - Pittsburgh
10 - Vancouver
16 - Detroit
18 - Boston
19 - Montreal

Number of 1st OR 2nd-place (divisional) team finishes:
6 - Toronto
12 - Edmonton
14 - NYR
18 - Vancouver
21 - Pittsburgh
23 - Detroit
26 - Montreal
34 - Boston

and, of course...

Number of Stanley Cups:
0 - Toronto
0 - Vancouver
1 - NYR
3 - Boston
4 - Detroit
5 - Pittsburgh
5 - Edmonton
10 - Montreal


But of course, the real problem since '67 was...

I guess we should keep this in mind when considering players whose numbers are retired....

re: how few elite players the Leafs have had in recent decades

Compare to Pittsburgh.

In the last 30 years, the players with the most top-5 finishes in points-per-game in the NHL:
1) Crosby - 11
2) Jagr - 9 (7 with Pittsburgh)
3) Malkin - 7
4) Lemieux - 7 (11 total, 4 of them beyond 30 years ago)

All from the same team.

Penguins fans have been pretty lucky!

 

[Staniowski]

"The Ballad of Wendel Clark" by the Rheostatics (1987)

 

[Sentinel]

He is also one of the greatest people in the history of the sport, as anyone who has ever met him will tell you.

I believe Mario Lemiuex met him. Probably doesn't like to recall that encounter.

 

[The Panther]

I believe Mario Lemiuex met him. Probably doesn't like to recall that encounter.

That was Graves's low moment, yes.

Regardless, Lemieux would have loved to have had Graves as a teammate. Graves was mister-positive, who treated everyone like his best friend, and always jumped to his teammates' defense.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

That was Graves's low moment, yes.

Regardless, Lemieux would have loved to have had Graves as a teammate. Graves was mister-positive, who treated everyone like his best friend, and always jumped to his teammates' defense.

Why did Sather let Graves walk? Graves was only 22 when he signed with the Rangers. Pocklington not wanting to pay money again?

 

[The Panther]

Why did Sather let Graves walk? Graves was only 22 when he signed with the Rangers. Pocklington not wanting to pay money again?

Yep.

The Oilers had the 2nd biggest mass exodus in history in the summer/fall of 1991 (after Moses/The Israelites).


(As an aside, the photo of Graves currently on his Wikipedia page is kinda creepy.)

 

[Johnny Engine]

(As an aside, the photo of Graves currently on his Wikipedia page is kinda creepy.)

He wore 11 in 1992 before switching to 9, and now he looks like Eleven.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Yep.

The Oilers had the 2nd biggest mass exodus in history in the summer/fall of 1991 (after Moses/The Israelites).


(As an aside, the photo of Graves currently on his Wikipedia page is kinda creepy.)

Nightmare fuel.

 

[Vujtek]

Ottawa Senators to retire Chris Phillips' number 4

With the Senators retiring Chris Phillips' #, we have a new contender for the purposes of this thread. Phillips had a long and respectable career and played all of it with the Senators so you can understand why they are retiring his number, but he's still definitely at the lower end of the spectrum of players who have received that honor.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Graves was awesome.

 

[Fixxer]

Do you say that because Chris Phillips #4 is getting retired in Ottawa?

 

[blundluntman]

After looking up Yvon Labre, it looks like the rationale behind his jersey retirement is similar to inducting people into the HoF as builders (albeit, to a much lesser degree).

His wiki says he scored the first goal in team history and was a huge part of growing the sport in Washington through community and youth projects.
Clearly that doesn't change the quality of a player he was on the ice, but I get the sentiment.

 

[Voight]

Ottawa Senators to retire Chris Phillips' number 4

With the Senators retiring Chris Phillips' #, we have a new contender for the purposes of this thread. Phillips had a long and respectable career and played all of it with the Senators so you can understand why they are retiring his number, but he's still definitely at the lower end of the spectrum of players who have received that honor.

I think he now takes the cake. However, too his credit he did score a cup winning goal

After looking up Yvon Labre, it looks like the rationale behind his jersey retirement is similar to inducting people into the HoF as builders (albeit, to a much lesser degree).

His wiki says he scored the first goal in team history and was a huge part of growing the sport in Washington through community and youth projects.
Clearly that doesn't change the quality of a player he was on the ice, but I get the sentiment.

He was also the face of some extremely bad teams and gave them some legitimacy. Not a star, but at least someone the team could lead on for leadership and support during hard times.

 

[scott clam]

Every Franchise needs it's heroes, and they're not alwats the "superstar" variety.