Who is the New "Best Player Outside of NHL"?

[Henkka]

Nikulin is a good candidate.

As from forwards, Damier Brunner looks just ridiculously good. With or without Zetterberg.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Here are some gems from a rather heated debate we had around this time last year. Kind of nice to see that time has proved me right.

With the return of Radulov to the NHL, who do you believe is his successor as the best player outside of the National Hockey League?

Vehanen or Cervenka.

Cervenka has been incredable these playoffs.

I realize that this thread is largely aimed at Europe, but are there Canadian Hockey League/NCAA/AHL players who'd make this list over the Europeans? I'm not trying to spark a Europe vs. North America battle, I am asking this legitimately.

Not likely. There are ex-NHLers in Europe who could still be in the NHL if the asking price was right. Players in AHL simply aren't good enough to crack an NHL lineup.

For example could you make the argument why Cervenka is better than say Cory Conacher?

This was not answered at the time but to date Huberdeau (a CHL player at the time these comments were made) is leading rookies with 26pts. Conacher (an AHL player last year) is 2nd with 24 pts. Brunner has 22pts, Silfverberg has 16pts, and Granlund has spent a lot of the season in the AHL. If Cervenka qualified as a rookie his 12pts so far would have him in 17th in rookie scoring. Obviously he is not a rookie, nor was he even close to being the best player outside of the NHL last year.

The truth is that the AHL still draws from a much bigger pool of players than any other league beside the NHL. I do feel that Radulov is better than anyone in the AHL right now, but the average talent level in the AHL is higher than any league in Europe.

Imo, Dallman's a player that benefits from his circumstance (tones of ice/PP time and sometimes he's allowed to be a 4th forward).

Taken out of his element in Barys, I don't think he's well rounded enough to be more than a #2/3 dman and pp specialist on an Ak Bars or somebody.

Someone like Kirill Koltsov could put up similar numbers if put in the same circumstance.

I'd say he's the KHL equivalent of Mike Green.....someone who sees the ice well, can run a PP and rack-up points; but also really questionable in his own zone and takes a nose dive in the playoffs.

14 (playoff) games is not enough to make any kind of sound evaluation plus for better or worse things are going to change next year.

Sure it is, especially when the sample size spans 4 years.

Dallman's put up insane offensive stats.....but he's also very 1 dimensional and always nose dives in the playoffs. That's hardly a recipe for best player; much less 'quite a bit better' than everybody else.

So if I've got this right the only reason he gets so many regular season points is because he plays on a crappy team, yet you are critizing his playoff performance? First of all he only has 14 playoff games in the KHL so you are looking at an extremely small sample size. Secondly the better your teammates are and the weaker your competition is helps you get points, which is the case when you play for a good team, especially in the playoffs where for example Barys has always played a much higher seeded team.

A lot of players on the Red Wings had the poor playoff performer label for years. Then they started winning cups and all was forgotten. 14 games is not enough to make any kind of sound evaluation plus for better or worse things are going to change next year.

Most player's point totals decline in playoffs...big deal. We're discussing playoff performance (you'd know nothing about b/c you don't watch KHL)

Regardless of strength of team, teammates or circumstance, the best players DO NOT individually disappoint in the playoffs year in and year out.

And lots of players from mid-level KHL teams thrive come playoff time. The guys on Riga usually step it up. Last year upper mid level Atlant made it to the finals.

So for those who don't know Dallman joined a better team this year, still had a fantastic regular season and as of right now as a defenceman is 5th in overall scoring in the KHL playoffs. Not bad for a guy who couldn't be more than a #2 or 3 dman and who can't perform in the playoffs. I guess the KHL experts showed me.

 

[Zine]

So for those who don't know Dallman joined a better team this year, still had a fantastic regular season and as of right now as a defenceman is 5th in overall scoring in the KHL playoffs. Not bad for a guy who couldn't be more than a #2 or 3 dman and who can't perform in the playoffs. I guess the KHL experts showed me.

Very surprised with Dallman this year. I wasn't expecting such a good season; but I've always said he was a quality KHLer.

But he's still NOT "quite a bit better than anyone mentioned here". That you say as such shows a lack of hockey understanding and/or talent analysis. Also, claiming the KHL is biased because Dallman hasn't won many awards isn't adding to your case.

I mean if Renat Mamashev was Canadian, you'd probably say he's the greatest KHLer too. jk

 

[Zine]

This was not answered at the time but to date Huberdeau (a CHL player at the time these comments were made) is leading rookies with 26pts. Conacher (an AHL player last year) is 2nd with 24 pts. Brunner has 22pts, Silfverberg has 16pts, and Granlund has spent a lot of the season in the AHL. If Cervenka qualified as a rookie his 12pts so far would have him in 17th in rookie scoring. Obviously he is not a rookie, nor was he even close to being the best player outside of the NHL last year.

The truth is that the AHL still draws from a much bigger pool of players than any other league beside the NHL. I do feel that Radulov is better than anyone in the AHL right now, but the average talent level in the AHL is higher than any league in Europe.

What you're saying is akin to asking "Who are the best NHLers?", then comparing everybody by their non-NHL performances. You're again skewing the playing field and it's intellectually dishonest. Don't think people can't see through that. At least give the European players proper adjustment time before saying who's better in the N.A. game.

Regardless, Cervenka was one of the (if not the) best players outside NHL last few years.....his play in the NHL doesn't change the fact.



BTW, KHL >>>> AHL
With rising salaries in Europe, the AHL has evolved into a developmental/transition league filled with younger players. Compared to 10-15 years ago, the veteran career AHLer (who regularly would tear up the league) or the veteran NHL/AHL tweener tends to play in Europe now (boatloads of North Americans included).
It's almost universally agreed upon that AHL is behind the top European leagues.

 

[malkinfan]

Cervenka is doing fine, he plays on a lousy team. He has shown skill and has a shot. See what happens in the next 2 years, I think he will prove that he is a stud.. Certainly I would take him over Brunner any day of the week.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Very surprised with Dallman this year. I wasn't expecting such a good season.

By now you should have learned to listen to what I say, it was hardly surprising for me.

What you're saying is akin to asking "Who are the best NHLers?", then comparing everybody by their non-NHL performances. You're again skewing the playing field and it's intellectually dishonest. Don't think people can't see through that. At least give the European players proper adjustment time before saying who's better in the N.A. game.

Regardless, Cervenka was one of the (if not the) best players outside NHL last few years.....his play in the NHL doesn't change the fact.

Actually I was commenting on their NHL performances thus far this season. Cervenka may have been one of the best Europeans playing in Europe, but that hardly made him the best player outside of the NHL.

His (Evander Kane's) skill set didn't translate very well. He just wasn't very good.

I love this one too. After only 12 games (really only for conditioning) in the KHL you made this assessment of Kane, yet we are 40 games into the NHL season and you are saying it is to early for us to assess the new players from Europe.

BTW, KHL >>>> AHL
With rising salaries in Europe, the AHL has evolved into a developmental/transition league filled with younger players. Compared to 10-15 years ago, the veteran career AHLer (who regularly would tear up the league) or the veteran NHL/AHL tweener tends to play in Europe now (boatloads of North Americans included).
It's almost universally agreed upon that AHL is behind the top European leagues.

KHL salaries are a bit misleading. First of all they aren't published so no one knows exactly what they are. Secondly because of the perceived playing and living conditions in Russia most KHL teams would have to vastly overpay to get North Americans to play over there. Thirdly the goal of most players is to reach the NHL and because of that they will stay in the AHL as long as they think they have a shot.

The vast majority of the players in the European leagues are European, yet Europeans only represent approximately 30% of the world's hockey players. If the leagues in Europe had a similar depth you would expect to see around 70% of the players being from NA, which they are still far from. I'm sorry but there just aren't enough Russians playing the game to give the KHL the same average depth as the AHL, the numbers don't lie.

 

[Zine]

Actually I was commenting on their NHL performances thus far this season. Cervenka may have been one of the best Europeans playing in Europe, but that hardly made him the best player outside of the NHL.

Red herring.....NHL performance was never part of this thread. But even if it was, you contradict yourself.
How can NHL cast-off Dallman be "significantly better" than NHL regulars Brunner, Cervenka, etc? You can't have it both ways.

I love this one too. After only 12 games (really only for conditioning) in the KHL you made this assessment of Kane, yet we are 40 games into the NHL season and you are saying it is to early for us to assess the new players from Europe.

I'm correct.

Cervenka has the diversified skillset to adapt to an NHL top 6 role. How well he adapts has yet to be determined.
Kane simply did not have the skill-set to adapt....or at least not without changing the fundamental basis of his game. It would be the equivalent of Winnipeg signing Danis Zaripov for a checking role. Sometimes it's painfully obvious things won't work out no matter how much time you give a player.

Mr Kanadensisk, we know these things by watching players......not by stat counting.

 

[Zine]

KHL salaries are a bit misleading. First of all they aren't published so no one knows exactly what they are. Secondly because of the perceived playing and living conditions in Russia most KHL teams would have to vastly overpay to get North Americans to play over there. Thirdly the goal of most players is to reach the NHL and because of that they will stay in the AHL as long as they think they have a shot.

The vast majority of the players in the European leagues are European, yet Europeans only represent approximately 30% of the world's hockey players. If the leagues in Europe had a similar depth you would expect to see around 70% of the players being from NA, which they are still far from. I'm sorry but there just aren't enough Russians playing the game to give the KHL the same average depth as the AHL, the numbers don't lie.

Cherry picked numbers ≠ reality.

Can you find tons of quotes from players/coaches saying the AHL is the 2nd best league? I can with the KHL. Your opinion not only contradicts common sense it contradicts the opinions of players/coaches who've experienced the competition first hand.



Edited: Try this out. It's more precise than counting IIHF registered players. It was done a few years ago though.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/projecting_to_nhl.php

League Difficulty Relative to NHL
Russian Elite League 0.83
Swedish Elite League 0.78
Czech Republic League 0.74
Finland SM-Liiga 0.54
Deutsche Eishockey League 0.52
American Hockey League 0.44

 

[Prendan Brust]

Here are some gems from a rather heated debate we had around this time last year. Kind of nice to see that time has proved me right.











This was not answered at the time but to date Huberdeau (a CHL player at the time these comments were made) is leading rookies with 26pts. Conacher (an AHL player last year) is 2nd with 24 pts. Brunner has 22pts, Silfverberg has 16pts, and Granlund has spent a lot of the season in the AHL. If Cervenka qualified as a rookie his 12pts so far would have him in 17th in rookie scoring. Obviously he is not a rookie, nor was he even close to being the best player outside of the NHL last year.

The truth is that the AHL still draws from a much bigger pool of players than any other league beside the NHL. I do feel that Radulov is better than anyone in the AHL right now, but the average talent level in the AHL is higher than any league in Europe.











So for those who don't know Dallman joined a better team this year, still had a fantastic regular season and as of right now as a defenceman is 5th in overall scoring in the KHL playoffs. Not bad for a guy who couldn't be more than a #2 or 3 dman and who can't perform in the playoffs. I guess the KHL experts showed me.

Do you do the same thing when you're wrong?

 

[Pominville Knows]

C
Edited: Try this out. It's more precise than counting IIHF registered players. It was done a few years ago though.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/projecting_to_nhl.php

League Difficulty Relative to NHL
Russian Elite League 0.83
Swedish Elite League 0.78
Czech Republic League 0.74
Finland SM-Liiga 0.54
Deutsche Eishockey League 0.52
American Hockey League 0.44

I feel that a big mistake has been done here not taking the different rink sizes in as a variable. The game becomes much different and some players cant play on big ice while others not on small. The AHL plays much the same as the NHL, and when a player moves up and down between those leagues he sure is gonna feel the difference in the quality of the opposition.

 

[Latgale_fan]

I feel that a big mistake has been done here not taking the different rink sizes in as a variable. The game becomes much different and some players cant play on big ice while others not on small. The AHL plays much the same as the NHL, and when a player moves up and down between those leagues he sure is gonna feel the difference in the quality of the opposition.

Yeah that table is bollocks. I mean DEL in front of AHL?? Probably because tons of all kinds of guys from AHL go to it and 1 or two top talents in the other direction. And in any case maybe it was like that some time ago but not now.

 

[joe89]

Yeah that table is bollocks. I mean DEL in front of AHL?? Probably because tons of all kinds of guys from AHL go to it and 1 or two top talents in the other direction. And in any case maybe it was like that some time ago but not now.

The first time I read that article was a long long time ago now. It's still a good analysis but the hockey map is definitely different today.

The AHL has become much stronger due to European players going there to develop in a larger scale. People used to look down on it, now it's a good league on its own. Consequently the SEL and FEL have become weaker because they're letting talent slip not only to the NHL, but to the AHL aswell as the KHL. And it has to be 10 years ago the Czech league was seen as a top league in Europe, when they had incredible depth and were dominant internationally. Maybe more importantly, they had their kids developing at home. Previously the top tier players din't leave these domestic leagues for anything other than the NHL, with very few exceptions. The Swiss league on the other hand has taken steps forward since, and is really only inches away from Sweden and Finland these days.

So really we have the NHL, then a gap to the KHL, then a gap to the rest now.

 

[Arwin]

Antti Raanta has been unreal this season in FEL.
Regular season: .943% & 1,85 GAA
Playoffs so far: .955% & 1,38 GAA
Probably plays in NHL next season. If not, KHL for sure.
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=17016

 

[smitty10]

Antti Raanta has been unreal this season in FEL.
Regular season: .943% & 1,85 GAA
Playoffs so far: .955% & 1,38 GAA
Probably plays in NHL next season. If not, KHL for sure.
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=17016

Probably KHL or AHL. It's not often a young goalie jumps right into the NHL without playing in a top league before. He'll need to prove he can play at a higher level for at least a few months if he wants to come straight into the NHL.

 

[Arwin]

Probably KHL or AHL. It's not often a young goalie jumps right into the NHL without playing in a top league before. He'll need to prove he can play at a higher level for at least a few months if he wants to come straight into the NHL.

I agree. I really hope he gets a chance in NHL, hometown guy you see.

 

[Back in Black]

Who is the "Best Player Outside the NHL"?

Me.

I'm a Legend in my own mind!

 

[Fongule]

Kovalchuck

 

[El Cohiba]

Kovalchuck

Him and Radulov

 

[Thesensation19*]

I think a lot of people underrate some guys because they didnt play enough or at all in the NHL. I understand the value of having played and trained in the NHL. But I think guys theres a few guys overseas who can make great cases for themselves in the NHL who never played a full season here.

That guy Patrick Thorsen? Norwegian I believe. He was the center for Radulov for a while.

 

[TheNomad]

Thoresen got over 100 games in the NHL, but I don't think it was more than a 3rd line role. I could be mistaken though. He is pretty famous for blocking a shot when he was with the Flyers that nearly caused one of his testicles to be removed.

 

[JerseyShore99]

Surprised that an old forum didn't even discuss Alexei Morozov

 

[thevreelander]

I believe even with Kovalchuk in the KHL now, it's still Radulov. When Radulov is playing with his heart and soul he's a "full package" "5 tool player". If he stayed in the NHL and matured with the NHL experience I think he could have been the best power forward in the world. Love watching him in the KHL though even if it's for CSKA....

 

[ToewsGretzky*]

Has anyone mentioned Kovalchuk yet?

 

[Nuggets]

Mathis Olimb