Who is the most overrated player in the league?

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Dache

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Feb 12, 2018
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I also wanna know where Jones "carries" Columbus to. The 7th best record in the East?

Seems like McAvoy just gets penalized for being on a good team.
I don’t know how much he gets penalized but I get what you’re saying. I’m assuming it comes from the idea that without Jones Columbus is a bottom feeder but without McAvoy Boston is still at the very least a playoff team
 

Voight

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Feb 8, 2012
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"You don't watch him play" should just be considered trolling at this point.


I don't even think it's close.

The only reason McAvoy doesn't get that respect is because people still think Chara carries the team at age 74.

I think McAvoy is a great player.... however to say hes better than Jones is foolish :laugh: ... even Hamilton is a stretch.
 
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neXis

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Carey Price should be at the top of everyone's list. A former shell of himself, whose skill isn't what it used to be. People still consider him the best goalie in the league; he's not even the best Canadian goalie.

A close second is Steven Stamkos and Johnny "hockey" Gaudreau, notable playoff chokers in big moments. Can never push their team over that hump.

Notable mentions: Erik Karlsson, I think everyone knows he's done - so he isn't overrated.
 

ryan callahan

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McAvoy is one of the league's top two way guy, whereas Jones is more of an offensive guy and is way overrated on the defensive side of the game. I easily take McAvoy ahead of Jones based on current ability. And this is coming from a Habs fan.
 

Machinehead

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Jan 21, 2011
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I don’t know how much he gets penalized but I get what you’re saying. I’m assuming it comes from the idea that without Jones Columbus is a bottom feeder but without McAvoy Boston is still at the very least a playoff team
The're a playoff team but they're not winning shit without McAvoy. That ship has sailed. He does for them what Chara did when Chara was Chara.
I think McAvoy is a great player.... however to say hes better than Jones is foolish :laugh: ... even Hamilton is a stretch.
Oh yeah? Well you just don't watch him play then.
 
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Dache

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The're a playoff team but they're not winning shit without McAvoy. That ship has sailed. He does for them what Chara did when Chara was Chara.
That’s reasonable. Still adds to my point about what people most likely mean by Jones carrying Columbus and not talking about McAvoy like that. Not saying if the situations were reversed it wouldn’t be the same, just hard to tell for sure
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
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Thats great, but if you actually cared to watch him play you'd understand why people think that.

It takes an awful lot of confidence to proclaim that anybody who watches a certain player would understand why they’re considered a top-10 player after watching them. Clearly, you’re very confident in the assessments that you’ve made on Seth Jones using your eye test.

Can you tell me and everybody else what it is that you see from Seth Jones when you watch him play, and what you see from other defensemen that differentiates him from all but 9 (or fewer) of them? Please be as detailed as possible in describing how he contributes to his team out-scoring the other team more so than all but 9 defensemen. Thanks.
 

Northern Avs Fan

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“Propped up by a high-scoring team.”

“Massive liability in his own end.”

“Sheltered. Soft.”

“Next Myers, or Gostisbehere.”

“Overrated!”

 
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Crede777

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It takes an awful lot of confidence to proclaim that anybody who watches a certain player would understand why they’re considered a top-10 player after watching them. Clearly, you’re very confident in the assessments that you’ve made on Seth Jones using your eye test.

Can you tell me and everybody else what it is that you see from Seth Jones when you watch him play, and what you see from other defensemen that differentiates him from all but 9 (or fewer) of them? Please be as detailed as possible in describing how he contributes to his team out-scoring the other team more so than all but 9 defensemen. Thanks.
Jones has been hyped as being one of the future top defenseman in the league going back to his pre-draft year in Portland. He is simply executing on that potential which is why he is so highly regarded.

It would be like asking why Dahlin is so highly rated compared to another guy in 3-4 years.

Plus, if you listen to some of the recent discussion about him like the NHL.com list of top defensemen heading into the play-ins or the chat with Werenski on spitting chiclets, the pundits were saying that Jones is likely being held back in the Norris voting due to the fact that Columbus doesn't get much national coverage.
 
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TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
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Jones has been hyped as being one of the future top defenseman in the league going back to his pre-draft year in Portland. He is simply executing on that potential which is why he is so highly regarded.

It would be like asking why Dahlin is so highly rated compared to another guy in 3-4 years.

Plus, if you listen to some of the recent discussion about him like the NHL.com list of top defensemen heading into the play-ins or the chat with Werenski on spitting chiclets, the pundits were saying that Jones is likely being held back in the Norris voting due to the fact that Columbus doesn't get much national coverage.

I didn’t ask about his pre-draft hype, or what guys say about him on Spittin’ Chiclets. I asked what he actually does. Why is it so hard for people to answer this?
 

Crede777

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I didn’t ask about his pre-draft hype, or what guys say about him on Spittin’ Chiclets. I asked what he actually does. Why is it so hard for people to answer this?
Because defensive play is almost impossible to encapsulate in a descriptive post and there are no objective criterias for comparing defensemen. It isn't about the points or team wins. It is about how that defenseman plays as an individual as well as within a system.
 
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TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
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Comparing two defensemen is the exact opposite of critical thinking since there aren't any objective metrics for comparing them. It's all based upon subjective insight and opinion.

There actually are plenty of objective metrics comparing them, but more importantly, using subjective insight and opinion isn’t the same as what you’re doing. You’re using blind appeals to authority without actually putting any thought into how those authority figures and that majority came to form those opinions.

I’m all for somebody using subjective insight and opinion to tell me what they think that a defenseman does well, and why their eye test leads them to believe a player is better than the stats indicate. That is something that can absolutely co-exist with thinking critically. Your method of blind appeals to authority and majority isn’t.

To be clear here, I really do appreciate what you’re doing here because you’re being honest about the process that you used to form your opinion. That’s a lot better than the people like the person I initially quoted who use the exact same method as you to form their opinion, but pretend that they formed their opinion based on the eye test. I really do appreciate your honesty.
 
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Sol

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Remember how Flyers fans were like "zomg GOSTISBEHERE IS SOOO GOOOD WOWOWOWOWOW"

"number 1 material wooow"

"he's hot wow"

I remember... Damn. Bunch of stans smh.
 
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Crede777

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There actually are plenty of objective metrics comparing them, but more importantly, using subjective insight and opinion isn’t the same as what you’re doing. You’re using blind appeals to authority without actually putting any thought into how those authority figures and that majority came to form those opinions.

I’m all for somebody using subjective insight and opinion to tell me what they think that a defenseman does well, and why their eye test leads them to believe a player is better than the stats indicate. That is something that can absolutely co-exist with thinking critically. Your method of blind appeals to authority and majority isn’t.

To be clear here, I really do appreciate what you’re doing here because you’re being honest about the process that you used to form your opinion. That’s a lot better than the people like the person I initially quoted who use the exact same method as you to form their opinion, but pretend that they formed their opinion based on the eye test. I really do appreciate your honesty.
While there are plenty of objective metrics for the players, they are of little use for comparison as there isn't even an agreement about what a "good" defenseman is. Even then, the metrics don't hold much value as they show the players within separate systems rather than in a vacuum.

We can point to things like points, gf/ga, quality of competition, etc. But doing so doesn't actually tell us much as we don't have an agreement on how important each metric actually is compared to the other metrics. Even then, the player's metrics cannot be separated from the team that the player is on.

As such, it is almost impossible to compare two defensemen against each other in a vacuum.

That is why the appeal to authority is not only convenient but actually a logical move. It saves us time and energy from trying to hash out something to which there isn't actually a satisfying or concrete answer.
 
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Necrobutcher

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Notable mentions: Erik Karlsson, I think everyone knows he's done - so he isn't overrated.
He for sure isn't overrated anymore but i wouldn't go as far as saying he's done. He is only 30 years old and has had some injury issues lately so i'd say he's one of the most likely players to have a bounce back.
 

Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
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The're a playoff team but they're not winning shit without McAvoy. That ship has sailed. He does for them what Chara did when Chara was Chara.

Oh yeah? Well you just don't watch him play then.

Too far. now McAvoy will have to join the others in this thread. I'm a fan of his, but your statement is just ridiculous :laugh:
 

Reality Czech

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Tavares has played better the past few seasons compared to Barzal, Pettersson, Kopitar, and Getzlaf, so he should be ahead of them.

He's also had better regular season stats than O'Reilly if you take away him winning the Conn Smythe Trophy last year.

Points and stats alone don't make a good center. You have a lot better chance winning a Cup with ROR on your team than Tavares and that's perhaps one reason why some think he's overrated. The top scoring centers aren't necessarily the top centers in the league.

For me Duchene and Seguin are the most overrated.
 

LeafsNation75

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Points and stats alone don't make a good center. You have a lot better chance winning a Cup with ROR on your team than Tavares and that's perhaps one reason why some think he's overrated. The top scoring centers aren't necessarily the top centers in the league.
I'm not saying O'Reilly isn't a good Centre. However in his career he's never reach the production level of Tavares like scoring at least 30+ goals, since his highest is 28 which he's done 2x and the most points he's scored is 77. So if it wasn't for the Blues winning the Cup and O'Reilly winning the Conn Smythe, would anyone actually take him over Tavares?
 

frisco

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Tuuka Rask. One big year, that's about it. Never won a Cup as a starter. Needs a good backup to help make it through the year. Has a superior team in front of him making him look good. Lots of playoff failure. And some guys still list him as one of the better goalies over the last ten years.

My Best-Carey
 

Reality Czech

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I'm not saying O'Reilly isn't a good Centre. However in his career he's never reach the production level of Tavares like scoring at least 30+ goals, since his highest is 28 which he's done 2x and the most points he's scored is 77. So if it wasn't for the Blues winning the Cup and O'Reilly winning the Conn Smythe, would anyone actually take him over Tavares?

JT will almost certainly outscore ROR but if you want to give your team a better chance to win, then you should probably pick ROR. When I see fan lists of top centers, I usually see them pick one-dimensional offensive guys over two way beasts. But those are the guys who are more likely to lead to team success.

My only point is that comparing offensive stats doesn't show the whole picture. In the playoffs, I'd rather have a two way center like ROR or Bergeron rather than someone who is average or below average defensively. I could argue that many young stars are "overrated" because they are not yet complete hockey players.

As for JT I'd say he is properly rated. A damn good player, but still seems like he's missing something to be put in the top tier of star players.
 
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