Who is the most overrated player in the league?

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CatchyTune

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It’s a discussion because in Eichel vs Matthews debates it’s irrelevant, while in Matthews vs Drai, it’s what makes up for a 30 pt scoring gap.
I wouldnt say its irrelevant. If Eichel had more talent to play with, i'm sure his numbers would go up. Thats usually how it goes.

Ive never seen anyone argue in that fashion in regards to Matthews and Draisaitl. Draisaitl scored more, which is a fact. People do factor in the 51 points Connor Mcdavid contributed to however. You really cant ignore that. They were 1-2 in PP points this year. But do we shrug off Draisaitls accomplishments? No. We dont see Zack Kassian putting up 100+ points on Mcdavids wing. Draisaitl is an amazing scorer. People may say he is overrated due to that reason though, I see some people call him #2 after Mcdavid, or even the best player in the league, which is silly.

While he doesnt rely on Mcdavid, he helps. Especially on the powerplay. And his poor defensive play hinders peoples view of him a complete 2-way player. I dont think anyone argues in the fashion you implied.

Edit: Also, people point to Eichel not having as much talent today, we cant forget that in 2016-17 Matthews played with rookies Nylander (61 points) and Hyman (28 points). I would say that is collectively worse than Reinhart/Olofsson in 2019-20. Matthews still produced 40 goals and 69 points as a rookie, leading the leafs to a playoff spot.
 
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Dache

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I wouldnt say its irrelevant. If Eichel had more talent to play with, i'm sure his numbers would go up. Thats usually how it goes.

Ive never seen anyone argue in that fashion in regards to Matthews and Draisaitl. Draisaitl scored more, which is a fact. People do factor in the 51 points Connor Mcdavid contributed to however. You really cant ignore that. They were 1-2 in PP points this year. But do we shrug off Draisaitls accomplishments? No. We dont see Zack Kassian putting up 100+ points on Mcdavids wing. Draisaitl is an amazing scorer. People may say he is overrated due to that reason though, I see some people call him #2 after Mcdavid, or even the best player in the league, which is silly.

While he doesnt rely on Mcdavid, he helps. Especially on the powerplay. And his poor defensive play hinders peoples view of him a complete 2-way player. I dont think anyone argues in the fashion you implied.
Of course playing with McDavid helps, but it doesn’t make up the 30pt difference, especially factoring in Matthew linemates are slouches either. How many of Matthews pts are shared with Nylander or this year Marner? Should those be taken away in comparisons with Eichel? Of course not. So acting like all 51 of those points as cause of McDavid is just nonsensical. I don’t see how calling a guy that was running away with the scoring race this year after a 50/50 season last year one of the best players in the league is silly?if Matthews gets 50g 50a next year or even more would you not consider him one of the top 2-3 players in the league?
 

Dache

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I wouldnt say its irrelevant. If Eichel had more talent to play with, i'm sure his numbers would go up. Thats usually how it goes.

Ive never seen anyone argue in that fashion in regards to Matthews and Draisaitl. Draisaitl scored more, which is a fact. People do factor in the 51 points Connor Mcdavid contributed to however. You really cant ignore that. They were 1-2 in PP points this year. But do we shrug off Draisaitls accomplishments? No. We dont see Zack Kassian putting up 100+ points on Mcdavids wing. Draisaitl is an amazing scorer. People may say he is overrated due to that reason though, I see some people call him #2 after Mcdavid, or even the best player in the league, which is silly.

While he doesnt rely on Mcdavid, he helps. Especially on the powerplay. And his poor defensive play hinders peoples view of him a complete 2-way player. I dont think anyone argues in the fashion you implied.

Edit: Also, people point to Eichel not having as much talent today, we cant forget that in 2016-17 Matthews played with rookies Nylander (61 points) and Hyman (28 points). I would say that is collectively worse than Reinhart/Olofsson in 2019-20. Matthews still produced 40 goals and 69 points as a rookie, leading the leafs to a playoff spot.
Just to add, Marner contributed on 43 of Matthews points this year. That’s a higher percentage of points than you claim McDavid contributed to Drai.
 

CatchyTune

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Of course playing with McDavid helps, but it doesn’t make up the 30pt difference (I never said it did), especially factoring in Matthew linemates are slouches either (We all know that, although none are Mcdavid level). How many of Matthews pts are shared with Nylander or this year Marner? (Rough counted 58) Should those be taken away in comparisons with Eichel? Of course not. So acting like all 51 of those points as cause of McDavid is just nonsensical.(Never said it was) I don’t see how calling a guy that was running away with the scoring race this year after a 50/50 season last year one of the best players in the league is silly? ("One of" is a lot different then best or 2nd best) if Matthews gets 50g 50a next year or even more would you not consider him one of the top 2-3 players in the league? (Depends on defensive status and other players' years. Theres a lot more factors to being a top 2-3 player than just points)
 
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CatchyTune

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Just to add, Marner contributed on 43 of Matthews points this year. That’s a higher percentage of points than you claim McDavid contributed to Drai.
Nice, although i'm not sure how thats super relevant, unless you are saying Marner is Mcdavid level. Everyone has linemates.
 
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Dache

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first of all please don’t make it appear as though I said the things in bold. It’s misleading and confusing as hell. Secondly yes “one of” the best is 2nd best. It’s completely fine to disagree with anyone saying that but to not even try to understand their point of view about a 50 goal scorer who is dominating the league in points not being possibly top 2 is even more ridiculous. And for the record I thinks probably in the 5-7 range. But I can at least understand where those fans are coming from. Same as the leaf fans that think Matthews should be higher due to goals and some unlucky factors. I get it, but the flip flopping on when certain criteria counts is total garbage
 

Dache

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Nice, although i'm not sure how thats super relevant, unless you are saying Marner is Mcdavid level. Everyone has linemates.
What!? So then why does so many pts from McDavid count so much. If McDavid helps so much more than Marner would that not mean that the amount of points he contributes to would be way higher?
 

LeafsNation75

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Just to add, Marner contributed on 43 of Matthews points this year. That’s a higher percentage of points than you claim McDavid contributed to Drai.
Since Matthews and Marner played on the #1 power play line and Sheldon Keefe put them together at 5v5, I would expect something like that to happen.
 

CatchyTune

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first of all please don’t make it appear as though I said the things in bold. It’s misleading and confusing as hell. Secondly yes “one of” the best is 2nd best. It’s completely fine to disagree with anyone saying that but to not even try to understand their point of view about a 50 goal scorer who is dominating the league in points not being possibly top 2 is even more ridiculous. And for the record I thinks probably in the 5-7 range. But I can at least understand where those fans are coming from. Same as the leaf fans that think Matthews should be higher due to goals and some unlucky factors. I get it, but the flip flopping on when certain criteria counts is total garbage

People quote like that all the time lol, yours is 2 posts above mine. Anyone keeping up can easily see thats me answering. All things considered I dont overrate either. 5-7 is fair but I have both around 8-10.

What!? So then why does so many pts from McDavid count so much. If McDavid helps so much more than Marner would that not mean that the amount of points he contributes to would be way higher?

All linemates "help" eachother. But the way you worded it, made it seem like you either implied Marner was a Mcdavid level talent or that Marner was better than Matthews. If anything Matthews "helps" Marner more than the other way around. Matthews is very clearly the best player on the leafs and better than Marner. I dont get this comparison.
 

Dache

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Since Matthews and Marner played on the #1 power play line and Sheldon Keefe put them together at 5v5, I would expect something like that to happen.
I would too, so why does the amount that they contribute to each other count as a positive, but the amount the Drai and McDavid contribute to each other is a negative?
 

LeafsNation75

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I would too, so why does the amount that they contribute to each other count as a positive, but the amount the Drai and McDavid contribute to each other is a negative?
Maybe people think that since McDavid is a generational player it helps during the times he's been on the ice with Draisaitl, if they both combined on a goal no matter who scored it and who got the assist.
 

LeafsNation75

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All linemates "help" eachother. But the way you worded it, made it seem like you either implied Marner was a Mcdavid level talent or that Marner was better than Matthews. If anything Matthews "helps" Marner more than the other way around. Matthews is very clearly the best player on the leafs and better than Marner. I dont get this comparison.
Matthews is the Leafs best player, however I think Marner is their best playmaker.
 

Dache

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People quote like that all the time
That’s not true at all, at least not that I’ve ever seen

the way you worded it, made it seem like you either implied Marner was a Mcdavid level talent or that Marner was better than Matthews.
That’s not at all the way I worded it. You are the one that brought up how many of Drais points McDavid has been in on as a way of showing how much McDavid helps

If anything Matthews "helps" Marner more than the other way around. Matthews is very clearly the best player on the leafs and better than Marner. I dont get this comparison.
Why is the 51 pts Drai and McDavid share a negative towards Drai, but the 43 between Matthews and Marner somehow not a negative for either?
 

Dache

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Maybe people think that since McDavid is a generational player it helps during the times he's been on the ice with Draisaitl, if they both combined on a goal no matter who scored it and who got the assist.
That’s the thing. A few of you posters are discounting anything that happens on the ice if McDavid is there. He’s a great player but he’s not solely responsible for every single point while he’s on the ice.
 

LeafsNation75

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Nope. I think Matthews is great. Read my post again and see if you can understand what I'm saying.
So why else have others in the past given Matthews criticism for his assists totals? After his rookie season despite him scoring 40 goals which was the most by any rookie since Ovechkin's first year, the talk among non Leafs fans is how he only had 29 assists.
 

CatchyTune

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That’s not true at all, at least not that I’ve ever seen


That’s not at all the way I worded it. You are the one that brought up how many of Drais points McDavid has been in on as a way of showing how much McDavid helps


Why is the 51 pts Drai and McDavid share a negative towards Drai, but the 43 between Matthews and Marner somehow not a negative for either?
I think you're confusing "helped" with "carried". I dont think anyone said Draisatl relies on Mcdavid in any way. Good players play well together and they both benefit. I dont think anyone even commented on Matthews/Marner in that way, let alone say that its not a negative.
 
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LeafsNation75

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I think you're confusing "helped" with "carried". I dont think anyone said Draisatl relies on Mcdavid in any way. Good players play well together and they both benefit. I dont think anyone even commented on Matthews/Marner in that way, let alone say that its not a negative.
At one point that was a legit question to ask because in the 2015-16 season when McDavid missed 48 games due to injury, Draisaitl only had 51 points.

However in the 2016-17 when Draisaitl got to play with McDavid he went up to 77 points, so how else do you explain a 26 point increase like that in 1 season?
 

ToDavid

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Matthews is better than Eichel, so I'm unsure of the bolded.

In fairness to that poster, I would probably agree Eichel has been underrated before this season which might lead people to believe other players are being unfairly overrated relative to him.
 

FlameChampion

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Not sure why people are bringing up Matthews and I am not even a Leafs fan.

I think most overated are the guys are still have the label of being a great player but arent anymore. Some of them are still very good but theres a large amount of guys who are trending downwards pretty quick. Some people realize it but others dont. Price, Doughty, Benn, Karlsson etc.
 

WetcoastOrca

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So why else have others in the past given Matthews criticism for his assists totals? After his rookie season despite him scoring 40 goals which was the most by any rookie since Ovechkin's first year, the talk among non Leafs fans is how he only had 29 assists.
Read my post first. Then respond.
In your rush to defend every Leaf player you don't take the time to actually read what others are saying.
 
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Dache

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I think you're confusing "helped" with "carried". I dont think anyone said Draisatl relies on Mcdavid in any way. Good players play well together and they both benefit. I dont think anyone even commented on Matthews/Marner in that way, let alone say that its not a negative.
Oh come on there’s people in this thread that have called him a product of McDavid etc. And no of course no one comments on how much Marner and Matthews help each other. Cause most hockey fans see that as great players helping each other, unfortunately certain leaf posters like to use that against other players arbitrarily.
Do a quick search for “Draisaitl Carried” or
Leaches or product. It’s not hard to use the search feature on this site. Here’s one gem of an example.
lolwut? Draisaitl has "put it all together"??? Not remotely close. He still leaches off McDavid ALOT, although not as much as in past years. And the same statistics that paint Matthews as a play driver and one that inhibits chances against among the best int he league, paint Draisaitl as a mess. Like Kovalev level floater.
Here’s another just a few posts up. If Drai gets better it’s cause of McDavid, but when Matthews improves its all Matthews
At one point that was a legit question to ask because in the 2015-16 season when McDavid missed 48 games due to injury, Draisaitl only had 51 points.

However in the 2016-17 when Draisaitl got to play with McDavid he went up to 77 points, so how else do you explain a 26 point increase like that in 1 season?
 
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