Who is the Lebron James of NHL history when it comes to the finals?

[GMR]

IMO he's already at worst number 2. I still have MJ number 1, but Lebron still has some very good years left. I project when it's all said and done LJ takes over as #1. Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic have already been clearly beat imo.

Your opinion of course, but many of those players you mentioned have more MVPs, championships, stats, or overall influence on the history of the game than Lebron does. He's been to more Finals than the others, but that's what happens when you play in a weaker conference and have guys like Wade, Irving, and Bosh on your team. The only exception was last season, but to his luck, Boston's star players were injured when the two teams met. Certainly a case can be made for him as #1, but I still have him just outside the top 5.

Anyhow, I think Howe is the closest hockey comparison I can think of. Maybe Hull if he lost a few more Finals, but he left the NHL before that could happen. The other players mentioned so far are not top 10 NHL players. Even so, nobody ultimately remembers Gordie Howe as having a bad Finals record. It's not really held against him like it is by Lebron detractors. The NBA is just too relient on star players carrying their teams. In hockey, the same is not expected as much.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lebron is a top 10, arguably top 5 all time player. Based on that metric, Gordie Howe has to be the answer. Their Finals records are similar.

LeBron is at worst the second best player of all time

 

[Big Phil]

IMO he's already at worst number 2. I still have MJ number 1, but Lebron still has some very good years left. I project when it's all said and done LJ takes over as #1. Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic have already been clearly beat imo.

Hmmm, we'll see

 

[McKappa]

Lebron is a top 10, arguably top 5 all time player. Based on that metric, Gordie Howe has to be the answer. Their Finals records are similar.

"Arguable"

He's 2 or 3, probably will be 2 by the end of his career

 

[McKappa]

Your opinion of course, but many of those players you mentioned have more MVPs, championships, stats, or overall influence on the history of the game than Lebron does. He's been to more Finals than the others, but that's what happens when you play in a weaker conference and have guys like Wade, Irving, and Bosh on your team. The only exception was last season, but to his luck, Boston's star players were injured when the two teams met. Certainly a case can be made for him as #1, but I still have him just outside the top 5.

Anyhow, I think Howe is the closest hockey comparison I can think of. Maybe Hull if he lost a few more Finals, but he left the NHL before that could happen. The other players mentioned so far are not top 10 NHL players. Even so, nobody ultimately remembers Gordie Howe as having a bad Finals record. It's not really held against him like it is by Lebron detractors. The NBA is just too relient on star players carrying their teams. In hockey, the same is not expected as much.

Who do you have ahead of him, I respect your opinion and all but I honestly can't see how he isn't objectively top 5 all time, probably top 3.

 

[crobro]

Paul Coffey

 

[GMR]

Who do you have ahead of him, I respect your opinion and all but I honestly can't see how he isn't objectively top 5 all time, probably top 3.

The guys I already mentioned. Jordan, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Russell. All but one of these players have more championships than him and only Magic has fewer MVPs. I feel that each player also had a bigger influence on the way the game is played.

The people that put Lebron second seem to be ignoring his Finals record and act like he's won 10 MPVs. Not sure why he's already a slam dunk #2. It's not hard to put him objectively outside the top 5, and here's the kicker that people are overlooking. The guys ahead of him I listed are not Larry, Moe, and Curly. These are legends of the sport. It's not a knock on Lebron to say he hasn't passed these players.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

LeBron hasn't won a MVP in the last 5 seasons. Ask any sensible fan who the best player in the NBA has been the past 5 years and LeBron James would be the answer. MVP counting only goes so far.

You can point to his Finals record, but he's been the underdog in at least 5-6 of those trips. The only true disappointment was the first trip with Miami. The fact that he even won one against GS is pretty remarkable. The next year he averaged a triple double during the Finals and they still didn't have a chance. Just like nobody has a chance next season for GS either.

 

[McKappa]

LeBron hasn't won a MVP in the last 5 seasons. Ask any sensible fan who the best player in the NBA has been the past 5 years and LeBron James would be the answer. MVP counting only goes so far.

You can point to his Finals record, but he's been the underdog in at least 5-6 of those trips. The only true disappointment was the first trip with Miami. The fact that he even won one against GS is pretty remarkable. The next year he averaged a triple double during the Finals and they still didn't have a chance. Just like nobody has a chance next season for GS either.

Some people talk like it's better to lose earlier than in the Finals, being to the finals NINE TIMES should be considered a huge achievement all on it's own.

Also I don't think there's a objective argument to rank Lebron behind Magic anymore, Lebron's PRIME has been longer than Magic's CAREER at this point, while clearly being the better player by the eye test and by advanced stats. Jordan, Kareem, sure. But def not Magic anymore

 

[LightningStorm]

There really isn't an equivalent in the NHL. Maybe if Lemieux had stuck around and dragged his Pens to the Cup Finals each year, only to get pasted by the much more well rounded Red Wings, Avs, and Stars, there would be some parallels. But the NBA is the kind of sport where an athletic freak the likes of which the game has never seen can drag his team farther than his hockey playing counterpart.

Great point about Lemieux. Both him and Lebron are in the GOAT discussion for their sports. And had Lemieux not retired in 1997, I could see his Pens teams with him and Jagr winning the weak east some years (especially when the Devils stumbled), only to lose to the more well rounded (and much better defensively) Wings, Avs and Stars. Like Lebron, Lemieux would've been in the weaker conference.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

lebron is no worse than number 2 all time, you can make a strong argument for him being number 1

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The guys I already mentioned. Jordan, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Russell. All but one of these players have more championships than him and only Magic has fewer MVPs. I feel that each player also had a bigger influence on the way the game is played.

The people that put Lebron second seem to be ignoring his Finals record and act like he's won 10 MPVs. Not sure why he's already a slam dunk #2. It's not hard to put him objectively outside the top 5, and here's the kicker that people are overlooking. The guys ahead of him I listed are not Larry, Moe, and Curly. These are legends of the sport. It's not a knock on Lebron to say he hasn't passed these players.

There honestly isn't an argument for any perimeter player being better than Lebron James in the history of the sport.

And Lebron has been the best player in the game every season for at least the past decade. It doesn't matter who gets voted as the MVP.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

okay so maybe this is going to sound sacrilegious, or at least it is for me as someone who thinks bobby orr is the greatest player to ever take the ice and a longtime lebron-hater, but i think in a way orr might be the best hockey comparison for orr.

lebron changed how basketball works. his versatility has turned the previous generation's two marquee positions into specialists: the shooting guard and center used to be the focal points of NBA offenses. now all but a couple of shooting guards basically do nothing but catch, shoot, and defend the perimeter, while the dominating low post center barely even exists anymore. instead, you have offenses built around superathletic small forwards who can handle the ball, playmake, penetrate, and switch off to defend at least three guys on the floor at any given time.

lebron wasn't the first player to be a point-forward. scottie pippen, grant hill, there have been guys like that before, and probably a lot earlier than scottie that i just don't know about because it was before my time. but lebron was so dominant that he changed the way people thought the game. and now position, as such, is much more fluid, and teams are playing three, four, even five 6'5 to 6'7 guys at the same time and trapping and switching like crazy. those guys aren't all even close to lebron in terms of ability but they can do a poor man's impersonation of his versatility.

just like bobby orr wasn't the first rushing defenseman, but he revolutionized the transition game such that the puck moving defenseman became vital to every team's game plan, whether you had anything resembling bobby orr or not.

and when all is said and done, both guys won a lot less championships that you think they maybe should but even though their leagues basically changed themselves in their respective best players' images, you knew you were watching something you would never see again.

---

and i just have to say, i remember watching game 5 of the eastern conference finals, lebron's rematch against the pistons. i was on a jet blue flight. to this day that fourth quarter and two OTs might be the greatest individual performance i've seen since jordan. i was completely dumbfounded by what i was watching.



but i still have lebron no higher than three (yet), and probably at four, behind jordan, russell, and kareem. when all is said and done, who knows? with that body, there is a chance he has a malone or even kareem-length prime.

 

[Big Phil]

Paul Coffey

That's a strange choice, why him? He won 4 Cups, played in three other Cup finals and lost. So his record is 4-3, which is barely different than Gretzky's (4-2).

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

There's no historical comparison here. Where the best player in the world lost to the best team in the league every year. Lebron got hit with facing arguably the greatest basktetball of all time.

 

[GMR]

There's no historical comparison here. Where the best player in the world lost to the best team in the league every year. Lebron got hit with facing arguably the greatest basktetball of all time.

Actually there is, but it's in the NBA. Wilt Chamberlain got stuck playing those Celtics teams frequently in the playoffs.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Actually there is, but it's in the NBA. Wilt Chamberlain got stuck playing those Celtics teams frequently in the playoffs.

Oh true. I didn’t even think of that. Good call. I was trying to think in other sports, but good point.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

Dr. J probably wishes he had not started in the ABA. A one man highlight reel.

 

[Whaleafs]

Really don’t think there’s anything comparable. Closest I can think of in recent years (same era as Lebron) is Hossa. He’s not comparable as the top player in the league and has a favourable 3-2 record in the final, but the 3 straight final appearances, losing the first 2 before finally winning one is the only thing that comes to mind.

 

[BlueBull]

Again, my boy Bobby Smith comes to mind.
1-3. I know he is nowhere near as legendary (at his best times he was top 10 in the NHL), but the record is very similar.
Won Championship(s), lost a lot more.

 

[crobro]

JIM Kelley NFL

 

[sawchuk1971]

Meaning, who among the greats has a lopsided won-lost record in the championship final in the NHL? Lebron is 3-6. Let's not include Brian Propp here. Yes he was 0-5 in the final, but he isn't in the HHOF let alone anywhere near someone like Lebron. Norm Ullman is a bit better in the 0-5 club, but still not at the all-time level I am looking for.

As for other sports, it is pretty hard to find now that I look at it. In the NFL John Elway was 2-3 in Super Bowls, which is still respectable. Kurt Warner 1-2. Poor Jim Kelly is 0-4.

Baseball has some like this as well. Willie Mays was 1-3 in the World Series. Ty Cobb was 0-3. Jackie Robinson was 1-5 and that doesn't even include the 1951 pennant race finish. A lot of old Brooklyn Dodgers have similar records too. Duke Snider 2-4. Roy Campanella was 1-4. Pee Wee Reese was 1-6. Gil Hodges was 2-5. Man, those poor Dodgers just couldn't catch a break against the Yankees until 1955, and only then.

So who has this record in hockey? Who is a true all-time great but has a suspect record in the Cup finals? I looked it up, and it might surprise people that Gordie Howe is 4-7 all-time in this respect. Phil Esposito is 2-4 and Brad Park is 0-3. Bobby Hull is 1-3. Stan Mikita was 1-4. Alex Delvecchio is 3-5.

Park and Esposito are the most modern great players with that sort of record unless I am missing someone. Provide your input.

rocket richard?

 

[Plural]

Lebron is a top 10, arguably top 5 all time player. Based on that metric, Gordie Howe has to be the answer. Their Finals records are similar.

I think it's more than common opinion that Lebron is top-2 player. He's the closest competition to Jordan we've seen. Personally I rank Federer, Messi and Lebron in the same "god" tier as I do the likes of Tiger, Gretzky, Pele, Jordan, etc.

 

[bobholly39]

okay so maybe this is going to sound sacrilegious, or at least it is for me as someone who thinks bobby orr is the greatest player to ever take the ice and a longtime lebron-hater, but i think in a way orr might be the best hockey comparison for orr.

lebron changed how basketball works. his versatility has turned the previous generation's two marquee positions into specialists: the shooting guard and center used to be the focal points of NBA offenses. now all but a couple of shooting guards basically do nothing but catch, shoot, and defend the perimeter, while the dominating low post center barely even exists anymore. instead, you have offenses built around superathletic small forwards who can handle the ball, playmake, penetrate, and switch off to defend at least three guys on the floor at any given time.

lebron wasn't the first player to be a point-forward. scottie pippen, grant hill, there have been guys like that before, and probably a lot earlier than scottie that i just don't know about because it was before my time. but lebron was so dominant that he changed the way people thought the game. and now position, as such, is much more fluid, and teams are playing three, four, even five 6'5 to 6'7 guys at the same time and trapping and switching like crazy. those guys aren't all even close to lebron in terms of ability but they can do a poor man's impersonation of his versatility.

just like bobby orr wasn't the first rushing defenseman, but he revolutionized the transition game such that the puck moving defenseman became vital to every team's game plan, whether you had anything resembling bobby orr or not.

and when all is said and done, both guys won a lot less championships that you think they maybe should but even though their leagues basically changed themselves in their respective best players' images, you knew you were watching something you would never see again.

---

and i just have to say, i remember watching game 5 of the eastern conference finals, lebron's rematch against the pistons. i was on a jet blue flight. to this day that fourth quarter and two OTs might be the greatest individual performance i've seen since jordan. i was completely dumbfounded by what i was watching.



but i still have lebron no higher than three (yet), and probably at four, behind jordan, russell, and kareem. when all is said and done, who knows? with that body, there is a chance he has a malone or even kareem-length prime.

I actually love the Orr comparison. People are always saying Orr is the most dominating player in NHL history (or top 2) - yet for all of that he only has 2 cups and i believe 3 finals total. And this on pretty strong Boston teams (as opposed to Lemieux - to whom this could also have applied, but he often played on very bad teams). That's disappointing.

Lebron is one of the most dominating ever in his sport (top 2 imo) yet has a negative record in finals.

But Lebron has usually played insanely well in the finals. Most of the time - it's a testament to how good he is that his teams even made it to the finals, as opposed to his fault his teams came up short.

Orr being as good as he was - I assume that same argument can be said about him (though i admit im less familiar with playoff matchups/history in the 70s).