Who is the Lebron James of NHL history when it comes to the finals?

[Big Phil]

Meaning, who among the greats has a lopsided won-lost record in the championship final in the NHL? Lebron is 3-6. Let's not include Brian Propp here. Yes he was 0-5 in the final, but he isn't in the HHOF let alone anywhere near someone like Lebron. Norm Ullman is a bit better in the 0-5 club, but still not at the all-time level I am looking for.

As for other sports, it is pretty hard to find now that I look at it. In the NFL John Elway was 2-3 in Super Bowls, which is still respectable. Kurt Warner 1-2. Poor Jim Kelly is 0-4.

Baseball has some like this as well. Willie Mays was 1-3 in the World Series. Ty Cobb was 0-3. Jackie Robinson was 1-5 and that doesn't even include the 1951 pennant race finish. A lot of old Brooklyn Dodgers have similar records too. Duke Snider 2-4. Roy Campanella was 1-4. Pee Wee Reese was 1-6. Gil Hodges was 2-5. Man, those poor Dodgers just couldn't catch a break against the Yankees until 1955, and only then.

So who has this record in hockey? Who is a true all-time great but has a suspect record in the Cup finals? I looked it up, and it might surprise people that Gordie Howe is 4-7 all-time in this respect. Phil Esposito is 2-4 and Brad Park is 0-3. Bobby Hull is 1-3. Stan Mikita was 1-4. Alex Delvecchio is 3-5.

Park and Esposito are the most modern great players with that sort of record unless I am missing someone. Provide your input.

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[bobholly39]

In modern times.....no one?

Most teams in the past 30 years who made it to the finals multiple times won a few cups...there aren't any teams who keep making finals and losing tbh.

maybe in the 06 era as you say

 

[Admiral Awesome]

There really isn't an equivalent in the NHL. Maybe if Lemieux had stuck around and dragged his Pens to the Cup Finals each year, only to get pasted by the much more well rounded Red Wings, Avs, and Stars, there would be some parallels. But the NBA is the kind of sport where an athletic freak the likes of which the game has never seen can drag his team farther than his hockey playing counterpart.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

has to be pronger right?

 

[Big Phil]

has to be pronger right?

Since the Park era, then yes I would say he fits the bill somewhat. At least in modern times. He's 1-2. But there are other greats with that too. Bourque is 1-2. To a lesser extent Modano is 1-2 as well. Neely is 0-2.

There has to be all-time greats with better (worse?) records than this aren't there? At least in the last 40 years, no?

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

No where near the caliber of James, but Emile Bouchard is 4-6. In the 1956 SC victory, he only played one playoff game, so you could say he was 3-6.

Busher Jackson went 1-6.

Less worse were teammates Charlie Conacher and Hap Day who were 1-3.

 

[GMR]

Lebron is a top 10, arguably top 5 all time player. Based on that metric, Gordie Howe has to be the answer. Their Finals records are similar.

 

[Freddy The Fog]

Considering hockey players actually shake hands winning or losing in the playoffs - I'd say no one is the Lebron James of NHL history.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Busher Jackson went 1-6.

Less worse were teammates Charlie Conacher and Hap Day who were 1-3.

The stars of the 30s Maple Leafs were the first ones to come to mind for me too.

Among coaches - Dick Irvin: 4-12 record in the finals.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Lebron is a top 10, arguably top 5 all time player. Based on that metric, Gordie Howe has to be the answer. Their Finals records are similar.

There nothing arguable about top 5. He's cemented there. Dude's a freak.

 

[pnep]

Glenn Hall?

 

[GMR]

There nothing arguable about top 5. He's cemented there. Dude's a freak.

Wilt, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Russell. That's still my top 5 in whatever order you want to rank them. Who does Lebron knock off for sure already?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lebron is a top 10, arguably top 5 all time player. Based on that metric, Gordie Howe has to be the answer. Their Finals records are similar.

That's got to be it.

Slight difference in that Howe had a great record in the finals in the early 50s, then couldn't win another Cup the rest of his long career

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Joe Thornton? Although I 'd like to revise the premise. It's a lot easier to make the finals in the NBA than it is the NHL, so equating the NBA Final to the Cup finals isn't the best.

He's lost in the Conference Finals, what 3 times and the cup one time?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Since the Park era, then yes I would say he fits the bill somewhat. At least in modern times. He's 1-2. But there are other greats with that too. Bourque is 1-2. To a lesser extent Modano is 1-2 as well. Neely is 0-2.

There has to be all-time greats with better (worse?) records than this aren't there? At least in the last 40 years, no?

i was thinking pronger not so much on volume or losses, and just because of his loss-win record, which obviously is a direct fraction of lebron's, but mostly because of him being the best player on virtually every team he's ever played on. also, his team-hopping and lose-win-lose trajectory.

bourque's narrative is different, i think. his career was jerry west-like, only the super team came to him instead of the other way around. even though bourque was excellent in 2001, he wasn't peak bourque anymore, and i don't think many would argue he was one of the three most important players to that cup win. and similar to lebron, you could have named pronger MVP of each playoffs he reached the finals in and nobody would have blinked.

but i think we also have to qualify lebron's stunning nine finals appearances, especially the eight in a row. that is simply not possible in hockey and not necessarily just because one player in basketball can do a lot more. i mean, other than lebron, how many players have MVPed their teams to eight straight finals? i can name one. the big anomaly, which the NHL doesn't face, is that by some enormous fluke, every contender but one was in the western conference for almost a decade, and the best player in the world just happened to be in the east, and he just happened to be historically durable and consistent. like, can you imagine if from 1995 to 2002 new jersey, philadelphia, and pittsburgh were in the western conference and hasek was healthy and didn't have the off years in '96 and '01? would buffalo make the finals every year? (well, i guess they did lose in the ECF to washington that one year...)

Wilt, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Russell. That's still my top 5 in whatever order you want to rank them. Who does Lebron knock off for sure already?

for sure? i guess you can make an argument for any of those guys above lebron. but i have at least wilt behind lebron now, probably magic too.

lebron and wilt both have 15 seasons. same amount of MVPs, lebron has 3 titles to wilt's 2, lebron has more first team all-nbas than wilt has first and second teams combined, lebron has played more than 100 more regular season games (though wilt played his first eight seasons under the 80 game schedule, not 82), had the more successful superteam, and carried generally worse teams, though as i said above you do have to factor in the level of competition in the eastern conference.

 

[therealkoho]

Claude Lemieux

4 SC's with 3 different teams

Conn Smythe winner

the guy is remembered as a villain, but he had a heck of a career

 

[Big Phil]

Glenn Hall?

Yes, good call pnep. How did I forget this one? Hall is on a very short list for best goalies ever. Yet he was 1-6 in the final. To be fair, two of them he was sharing with Jacques Plante in 1969 and 1970. One of the others in 1968 he actually won the Smythe in a losing cause.

No where near the caliber of James, but Emile Bouchard is 4-6. In the 1956 SC victory, he only played one playoff game, so you could say he was 3-6.

Busher Jackson went 1-6.

Less worse were teammates Charlie Conacher and Hap Day who were 1-3.

Can't believe I forgot about Busher Jackson. Yeah, he's up there for sure. Also, I should have been thinking about Dick Irvin. Lots of success, but for a guy very high up there as an all-time coach he lost a surprising amount of times in the final and he left the Habs in 1955, right before their dynasty.

 

[c9777666]

The stars of the 30s Maple Leafs were the first ones to come to mind for me too.

Among coaches - Dick Irvin: 4-12 record in the finals.

And while he did win 3 Cups in Montreal, he's still the only coach to lose 3 straight Cup Finals IIRC and was a startling 1-6 with the Leafs, including 3 noteworthy losses- 1935 to the Montreal Maroons (last non-Original Six Cup winner until the Broad Street Bullies), 1938 to Chicago (worst record ever for a Cup winner), 1940 to the NY Rangers (didn't win again for 54 years)

 

[The Panther]

Bobby Hull didn't do too well, did he?

 

[DanM]

Lebron is a top 10, arguably top 5 all time player. Based on that metric, Gordie Howe has to be the answer. Their Finals records are similar.

He is literally top 2 when done

Him and MJ and the case is closed lol

 

[GMR]

He is literally top 2 when done

Him and MJ and the case is closed lol

No it isn't closed. All the players I mentioned have a good argument for being ahead of him. Only young people nowadays who don't care about the game's history think the case is closed.

 

[DanM]

No it isn't closed. All the players I mentioned have a good argument for being ahead of him. Only young people nowadays who don't care about the game's history think the case is closed.

I have been watching the game for 35 years.

If we use pure stats, he will finish number one or two in the end.

However, I get what you are saying, plus it's useless trying to compare the NBA before and the NBA super team mentality of today.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Wilt, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Russell. That's still my top 5 in whatever order you want to rank them. Who does Lebron knock off for sure already?

He is in the mix for number 1, he's definitely top 5. It's pretty easy to make a case over them all imo, including MJ. Please spare me the only young kids think this bs.

 

[Big Phil]

He is in the mix for number 1, he's definitely top 5. It's pretty easy to make a case over them all imo, including MJ. Please spare me the only young kids think this bs.

I'll keep Jordan #1. Right now you've got Wilt, Kareem, Russell and Magic as well as Lebron. Guys like Bird, Kobe, Robertson, etc. are your next level. Lebron, I will say begrudgingly, is in the first pile of players. Where he is now is a very testy debate, and a really hard one. But on projection can I see him end up #2? Yes.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I'll keep Jordan #1. Right now you've got Wilt, Kareem, Russell and Magic as well as Lebron. Guys like Bird, Kobe, Robertson, etc. are your next level. Lebron, I will say begrudgingly, is in the first pile of players. Where he is now is a very testy debate, and a really hard one. But on projection can I see him end up #2? Yes.

IMO he's already at worst number 2. I still have MJ number 1, but Lebron still has some very good years left. I project when it's all said and done LJ takes over as #1. Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic have already been clearly beat imo.